Label Queen with Nigel Barker

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to a Label Queen, or welcome in. You know, I hate that term, welcome in. Overused and people do it too much. But welcome. This is Label Queen. And what we're going to do here is we start the show with a little bit of pop culture. Things that are just sort of interesting to me, hopefully interesting to you. And. And then I'm gonna introduce our guest, who is very special, some of you may or may not know. And we're just gonna kick off with a little pop culture moment, because you know what? It's just what I do, it's what I. It's kind of what I live for. What you will not see on Label Queen is politics, probably anything about war, things like that. So it's just gonna be light and fun and easy. And the whole idea for Label Queen is really just to kind of, you know, get behind what are the labels we put on ourselves and who are we and who do are and what are the labels people put on us and why can't we be more than one thing? And all of the things that. That I love and that my guest represents. Anyway, before we get to that, I want to bring up a couple of things that have been interesting to me, kind of. We'll start with the high and the low, or let's start with the low, because everybody loves the low. First, there is a documentary that was just released on Netflix, and probably by the time this comes out, it'll be a month old and people will have talked about it, but I just think it warrants a little conversation because there's this. You know, when you thought about documentaries, I don't know, when you were a kid, you just thought sort of boring and, you know, I'm not going to be interested and blah, blah, blah. But there's this whole new wave of documentary filmmaking which caters to the sort of lowest common denominator. What we want and what we want to see and of course is, you know, already number one or two in Netflix. Most watch. It is called the Poop Cruise. It's actually a series called Train Wreck. So this is the Poop Cruise. It's a documentary that came out. It's directed by James Ross, and It's about the 2013 Carnival cruise that went from Galveston, Texas, I think, to Cozumel, Mexico. 4,000 passengers. In 2013, there was an electrical fire that they thought could sort of be rendered okay. And the. Yes, it was a drag, but the cruise could continue. That is not what happened. I think this was supposed to be a two Hour, two day cruise, maybe three days, whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is the entire electrical system went out and basically no power, no propulsion, no refrigeration, no lighting, no air conditioning. And most challenging and problematic, no flushing of toilets. So what happened was, you can pretty much glean from the title of the documentary, what do we do? And they were stranded. This is 4,000 people on a Carnival cruise. And by the way, a Carnival cruise is, you know, it's not the most high end cruise, but they're fun and you know, people have a good time and they get away. I actually went on one many years ago and I said to myself, I will never do it again because I just remember there was a Harry Back contest. And I just thought to myself, first of all, people, you know, were entering into the Harry Back contest and I just thought to myself, I am on the wrong cruise. And then because it was a cruise and I love a label, of course I got dressed up and took it too seriously. And me and my husband Mark walked out of our room and there were two kids playing in the hallway. And they looked at us and, and stopped and said to each other, the one brother turned to the other brother and said, look, rich people. And I just thought, oh my God, that's hilarious. Not true. But I just love that that was the vibe we were giving on this Carnival cruise. Anyway, to get back to these poor souls, 4,000 poor souls. What happened was they were told to urinate in the shower, the showers backed up, they the number two of it all that were given these red bags but asked not to throw it over because people were doing that and it was coming back in, they had no food. Weirdly, they decided to open the bar one night. It was just a mess and you can imagine. So you can't really urinate or go to the bathroom. You can't do number two, but we're going to open the bar. I'm not sure that was a good idea. Now the interesting thing about this documentary, and by the way, it's not the best documentary, I think they interview like five or six people out of 4,000 was two things. One, you really couldn't sue because all of these people, and probably when you go on a Cruise, certainly before 2013, you were basically signing away your rights. So you, if you look at the fine print, they could not sue for any reason. So these people ended up getting $500. Yes, they got reimbursed for the cruise and they did get one ticket for a future cruise. Now I'm not sure how many people would want to do a future cruise. $500 seems way too little. And honestly, I would have sued. And of course there's, there's a lawyer on this that looks like straight out of, I don't know, 1930s Hollywood with a big cigar. And I think some people did end up suing, but horrible press for, for Carnival at that in 2013. This is the type of thing with media and our sort of, you know, fascination with all things horrible. Here we are in 2025, number one, number two on Netflix, a whole nother wave of horrible publicity for Carnival Cruise. Anyway, check it out if you haven't. I'm sure your friends are talking about it. It is, to say the least, not the greatest. The next thing I want to go a little bit higher. Now there's a new documentary that just. Well, it's called I'm youm Venus and it's about Venus Xtravaganza, who played a role in the groundbreaking 1990 documentary Paris is Burning. Now the sad part of this story is Venus was murdered during the production of the film and never got to see it. She was living in Jersey City and she was part of the House of Extravaganza and taking risks. And she certainly was somebody who probably could have been forgotten. Probably her story would have ended there. Paris Is Burning was a phenomenal documentary by Jenny Livingston, which still is fantastic today. So I urge anybody who hasn't seen it or has seen it to rewatch it and then watch this documentary because it brings up a lot of things. First of all, she had three brothers, John, Lou and Joseph, I believe Pelagati was their last name. They all grew up in Jersey City, very tight knit neighborhood. And the movie is about the three brothers coming together to honor her. And they absolutely refer to her as her, not only honor her memory, but to help to reopen the case, to get some answers. And their meeting with the members of the new House of Extravaganza, which of course hasn't gone away. And there's a couple of pivotal scenes that I think are really important and groundbreaking. One is the brothers do meet one of the living early members of House of Extravaganza who knew Venus. And their coming together was a really emotional thing because as you can imagine in that day, times were very different and he wasn't sure how he was gonna react to the brothers. There's a lot of anger. There's two families. There's the biological family and the ballroom family. And you know, these are kids that are outcasts and don't feel like they fit in and have to choose a different route. But what it said to me is love, the love that the brothers had for her, the understanding, the desire to keep her memory alive, to honor her, is one of the most emotional and heartwarming stories that I've seen. And then the other really, really sort of monumental moment of this documentary is they're trying to get her house in Jersey City, her apartment building landmarked as a historical site, which I think is just so phenomenal because if you think about the movie and Venus talks about wanting to live in Europe or have a be a model or having a white picket fence and a husband and all of the things that really anybody wants were all shot in this apartment in Jersey City also. It was where she lived with her grandmother and it was her safe space. So to landmark this seemingly just sort of normal, everyday apartment building is monumental, not just for Venus and the family, but for the entire trans community who can look at this place, can visit it and understand what home really is. So it's a really, really layered, emotional documentary. Also the quest to change her name, leg, which it was not. All of her important documents, including her tombstone, was her dead name, as they say. So they were able to legally change her name. It's just, it's one of those documentaries where you think the story is done in 1990 and in 2025, how that story resonates, how her words in that documentary have been turned into beats and songs for the ballroom culture today. How it continues, how ballroom culture continues is just a really, really fabulous watch. So I urge anybody to watch it. Also, I stayed through the credits and Jenny Livingston is a producer on it, so she's continuing that as well, which I think is just a great thing. Now it is time to introduce my guest. So I have known Nigel Barker for, I don't know, 25 years, something crazy. And he's somebody that I've always admired. Not just from obviously, the America's Next Top Model and then the Face and then the books that he's written. But recently he's gone into the ready to mate, I call him Ready to Wear cocktail business. And he's designed and invented a really high end premium espresso martini. And by the way, I think I am one of those people that say espresso. It really is espresso. And I got schooled by Nigel. But in the interview, we talk a lot about his early beginnings and how he started on a modeling reality show himself and then became of course on America's next top model for 18 years, which is unheard of in television, as we know. And how he continues just to evolve and to not let the label of famed fashion photographer weigh him down. How he's more than that. His curiosity, his intelligence, and his just desire to understand who he is and to continue to build and grow. It makes him a perfect guest for label queen. So everybody grab your cocktail glass because coming up is my interview with famed fashion photographer and so much more, Nigel Barker. Nigel James. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. First of all, when you emailed me, I don't know if you know this, but the icon that came up is you and I on the set of full frontal fashion probably 23 or 24 years ago. [00:12:00] Speaker A: That's crazy. [00:12:01] Speaker B: First of all, I don't know how that icon appeared. I don't even wanna know. But that's what happens when you email me. And it made me think, we really have known each other a long, long time. [00:12:12] Speaker A: No, we've known each other since before gray hair was in fashion and that glasses were the number one accessory. [00:12:18] Speaker B: That's right. And cell phone, actually, I will tell this story. You've heard it a million times, but the listeners haven't. We were sitting front row at a fashion show. I don't know which one, And I was taking pictures with my phone, and I was like, ugh, my camera's not working. And you were sitting next to me and you looked at me and you said, because it's a phone. And I. I'll never forget that withering remark. And it's so true. It is not. I mean, the camera, they've gotten better, of course, but it's not a camera. [00:12:47] Speaker A: I mean. I mean, in fairness today, you know, there are great cameras on phones. And I would say this. I mean, yes, that was probably a rather bitter comment of a photographer who at that moment in time was watching how the world of photography was being hijacked by people with telephones, you know, and cell phones and what have you. And I think I was probably a little bit, you know, over it at that moment. But since then, I think I've been out, had time to reflect, 20 years or whatever it's been. And I would say this, that the iPhone and the camera phone has essentially given people the world over the ability to see photography for the first time ever. When I was a kid and I started as a photographer, it was a very expensive hobby for people basically who had a little bit of money because you had to buy film, you had to buy a camera. You had to process it, you had to make prints. The whole thing cost a fortune. To basically have a photograph was sort of several hundreds, if not thousands of dollars because of the camera cost just to get there. Right. So it was really prohibitive for most people to get involved. Now anybody, including my sort of kids, pick up a phone, they start taking pictures. Yeah. They're not using necessarily all the aspects of a camera, but they're understanding framing, they're understanding editing, they're understanding the look, the feel, the light, the timing. And if you have an eye, you have an eye. So it's almost like giving a child a pencil for the first time. If you took pencils away from everyone, there would be no artists, there'd be no writers. So it has upped the game for all new photographers. Lucky for me, I was able to establish myself well before that. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Right. So you sort of have this moniker, this label, which is why I wanted you to come on Label Queen, which is noted fashion photographer. That's how you were known to the world. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Sure. [00:14:31] Speaker B: And one of the reasons why I wanted you to come on is because, first of all, like all of us, you are so much more than that, and you have done so much more than anybody would have expected in your career. Talk me through how you got to America's Next Top Model, because this is a really interesting, interesting story. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think it's also a bit of a long story, but I'll shorten it because just to kind of give the abbreviated version, my life was never meant to even be in fashion. I had sort of set off at school looking at the sciences, biology, chemistry, physics and maths. I had planned on going to medical school. That was actually the route I was looking at. My mother entered me into a TV competition called the Clothes show in the uk, which is like the longest running sort of fashion show, I think, in the world. And I. They had a modeling competition. I didn't win. I got in the top three, but that got me a sort of a modeling contract anyway. And I thought, well, in between going to medical school and what have you, I'll try my hand at modeling. And one year led to two years led to me thinking, you know what? I don't really want to go to medical school. This world of fashion is really quirky and cool, and I'd never met people kind of like it anywhere like this. It was a sort of everyone who was talented but kind of perhaps didn't fit in at high school was in the fashion world. And I'm like, that's kind of me. And, you know, and I. And I was also, despite the fact that it may seem strange today, I was quite ethnically considered, quite ethnically different when I was at school, when I. When I was a kid in the 70s. So that was, it was very different time. And in the fashion world, I met people of all colors, all types, you know, it didn't matter. And I'm like, that was refreshing for me, being from a small, parochial town in England, coming to New York and sort of seeing people of all colors, all shapes, all sizes, all beliefs, you know, And I'm like, I'm home, you know, so sort of flash forward modeling was great in the early late 80s, early 90s. But we all know heroin chic, androgyny, everything changed from what the sort of looks. And that's what fashion is known for, changing cyclically. And I'm like, look, I'm a big guy. I'm six four. I played rugby. I was never going to be androgynous, a wavy twink. I was never going to be a wafy, you know, so I'm like, okay, what do I do? Where do I go? But I had always also enjoyed photography at high school. And so for the first time, I'd seen photography as a career. I mean, no one ever says to you anymore, when I was a kid, at least you should be a photographer when you grow up. [00:16:56] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:16:57] Speaker A: It was like, you should be an accountant, a lawyer, banker. You should go into finance. That's what I grew up with. And, you know, my background, my mother's from Sri Lanka. You know, the sort of Sri Lankan Desi Indian community does not have you going into the fashion world. That's not a thing. You know, you may own a factory that has people making clothes, but you are not, you're not, you know, working in it yourself. So that was just never an option. And all of a sudden I'm seeing photographers who are, you know, it's the one part of the industry where you can also sort of grow old quite gracefully as a photographer because you're behind the scenes. And I'm like, well, why throw away these years that I've had experience here and why don't I get into it? So I kind of swapped sides of the camera. It took me a couple of years in the mid-90s, came to New York because they didn't really know me. Set up a studio in the meatpacking district because it was the only place I could afford that. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was a dump when I went there. The ground floor was a club called the basement was a club called Hell. [00:17:51] Speaker B: I never been there. [00:17:52] Speaker A: I'm sure you haven't. I think I remember you actually wrapped up in a. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Hey, hey, hey. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Wrapped up in a carpet underneath the bar. [00:17:56] Speaker B: That's another story about that. [00:17:58] Speaker A: And were you the guy handcuffed? [00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that was you on a Wednesday, Thursday, for different. [00:18:04] Speaker A: And you know, and then there was a meat packing, active meatpacking on the ground, first floor. And on where I was on the second floor was actually a house of ill repute that we had to turn into a photo studio. [00:18:17] Speaker B: I love that. A house of ill repute. [00:18:21] Speaker A: So, you know, that was basically how I became a photographer. And I took the idea of Andy Warhol's Factory, which was the fact that I loved the idea that if I had a space to create in, then I wouldn't just be running around sort of the streets trying to figure it out. So I got myself a photo studio, which seemed a little crazy at the time because I didn't really have work, but I knew that I could create work. And actually what happened was, is that clients, I would bring them over and they would see that I had a space and they would go, oh, oh, well. And they assumed I must be doing better than I was. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:18:53] Speaker A: And I had this fabulous space. And it was. And it was actually a very large open space and it had a, you know, roof lights, ceiling lights, and what have you. It just. It became my space that I started shooting in. So that was really how I became a photographer. And then as far as top model goes, you know, I just worked my butt off as a photographer 24 7, constantly shooting. I used to shoot seven days a week. I would shoot all day long. I would do. And I was like a test photographer. So I test. And what that means, the eyes, is that test photographers go to agencies and they shoot models for their portfolios as they're up and coming. And because I had been a model, models trusted me, agencies knew me, and I knew what models needed to get jobs. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Very specific kind of thing. But what it also meant was that my photographs were in books of models going to clients who would then say, I'm going to book you for this job because of this picture, who shot this picture, and it got me jobs. [00:19:44] Speaker B: I love that you ended up on America's Next Top Model. But also being on a modeling competition show, the irony there is. Is just delicious. Talk to me about the Top Model years, especially with where fashion was, where it is now. And in your opinion, what Tyra did to change an industry and. Or did she? [00:20:06] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think there's no doubt that Top Model was instrumental in opening up the fashion world to a lot of people. I mean, I think there isn't a day that goes by still to this day where someone doesn't DM me or text me or write to me or bump into me in the street and say one, I loved your show and I was always watching it and it would be my Wednesday night treat with all my girlfriends or friends or what have you. But it's also, I get photographers who are like, I became a photographer because of that show watching you. I became a fashion designer. I got into fashion. I had no idea. So it, it allowed people to dream and to see it. A bit like the story with the iPhone. Like if you don't give people a chance, they don't know that they can do it. You know, you just. And I think there was a certain time where certain industries, they always existed, but unless you were absolutely knew how to do it or it was recommended to you, you'd never think of doing it. Whereas with television, one of the things that that medium gave people was sort of insight, especially reality tv, an insight into the inner workings of how, what that actually looks like. Not just the sort of pretty facade, but behind the scenes. [00:21:05] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:21:06] Speaker A: You know, so that's kind of what it did. You know, Top Model was an interesting one. I mean, you know, I, when I first did it, when I first was asked to do it, I mean, I had watched the first season just like everyone else. I was not in season one. I was on season two. Forwards. [00:21:18] Speaker B: How many seasons did you do it? [00:21:19] Speaker A: I did 17 seasons. I was there till season 18. Longest standing judge on the show actually, other than Tyra, as far as someone working on that show. And you know, so it was definitely something where I had no idea. None of us did. Because when you get on a show like that, especially season two, you think, well, maybe I'll do one season. Okay, that would be amazing. [00:21:39] Speaker B: Right? [00:21:39] Speaker A: Maybe we could get two seasons. But you just don't. No one knows that you're on a juggernaut of a show that will become basically one of the biggest shows ever. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:48] Speaker A: And one of the number one shows exported out of the United States as well. We actually, at the time of the hype of, of Top Model, we were bigger than Sesame street or Baywatch. We were in 156 countries with 100. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Million people watching as the American version. But then There were also franchise versions. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Versions as well. So we had 53 other franchise versions, which means Australia's Top Model, England's Next Top Model, and so on and so forth, which I also did a bunch of those as well. In fact, I was on Holland's Next Top Model as a permanent judge for four years as well, which people have no idea about, because it was in Holland. [00:22:19] Speaker B: So in your opinion, because Top Model and it's a reality show, really, at the end of the day, so you have to come up with these sort of challenges and photo shoots and in your opinion, what did Top Model sort of get wrong in those photo shoots? Or was it all just part of the fun? The photo shoots got bigger and grander and crazier. In your opinion, did those photo shoots sort of exemplify a reality in. In modeling? [00:22:48] Speaker A: Look, I think that there's. There's no doubt everything we did was pretty over the top. You know, it was actually, and this may sound strange to people, it was actually all based in reality. And what I mean by that is that we would comb through magazines and look for the craziest, most out there photo shoots that had sort of ever happened. It wasn't completely ridiculous. I mean, there's very famous photo shoots that happened in the. I forget. I mean, I'm forgetting the name of the photographer, you may remind me, the guy who shot in Paris on the Seine, in the Big balls of glass. It's a very. It's a classic picture. But, for example, that's where the inspiration for us to have balls on the swimming pool with them walking in it. So. And that was one of those ones where people were like, that's ridiculous. Why would you put girls in balls of glass and have them floating on? And it was actually, it's based on a classic photo shoot from Vogue, those sorts of references and people hanging off things too. Like, they may seem ridiculous, but let's not forget Avedon put, you know, Devima with an elephant behind her. You know, so we did the same thing. We would get other elephants and put our models with them, and it would be crazy. [00:23:48] Speaker B: It's such a great way to explain it. And I thank you for that because you're so right. I remember being on set with a model in Hawaii. We were on the cliffs of Hawaii, the water just sort of raging and going nuts below her. She was terrified. And I kept pushing her sort of closer and closer to the edge. I shouldn't laugh. And she said, you know, this was my first job after I broke my back on a Horse. And I was like, that is awful. And I kept pushing her to the edge. And that's what you do when you're on set. You know, you have this vision of what a shot should be. And sort of in the end you're really taking risks and chances and I don't know, it can be a little bit hairy as you know. [00:24:31] Speaker A: I mean, listen, I've done photo shoots on Top Model especially where I would say, yeah, my life was actually almost at risk. Yeah. You know the famous one with the bulls in Barcelona where we had an actual bull ring in the middle of Barcelona. We had real bulls that were from, you know, for bull fighting. And they were meant to be charging the girls down. We actually didn't have them charge the girls down, but what we did have is them charge me down prior to it. So I was photographing them with the bulls charging me down and I almost got killed. In fact, the bull at one point scraped me across the back, just, just missing me with its horn, ripping my shirt and drawing a line of blood down the back of me. And that's a 2,000 pound bull. And it was a crazy moment, you know, which they never aired any of that. They, you know, they just, that was all behind the scenes. And so they were just, you know, we were on top of photo shoot for Top Model on top of Sydney Harbour Bridge. And I was strapped with, with, you know, wires down, holding me onto the bridge with every piece of my equipment tied to my body. You know, we did photo shoots on top of Macau Tower. It's the highest bungee jump in the world. You know, I'm scared of heights too, so I clearly had to get over that, you know, but it was one of those things where we, we took it to the extreme, but it was based on the fact that in order to make something major happen, both photographically but also story wise, you know, you need to push boundaries. [00:25:51] Speaker B: So I did a little something behind your back, which you don't know about. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Shocker. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Shocking. I emailed our dear friend and your sort of co creator and creative director of America's Next Top Model, J. Manuel, and I asked him for a question for you and he asked this. This is from J. Manuel. Of all the places we got to travel and shoot abroad, what was your favorite country and why? And he's gonna preface this by saying his was Monaco. The entire trip was magical and I love the shoot we did together on the beach. So what was yours? If you can remember, a country or an experience. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I can. I mean, to Be honest, there's so many extraordinary places. One of the magical things about Top Model was our abroad location. And we traveled the entire world. I mean, South Africa, Italy, twice. We went to Rome and Milan, Paris, London, Cape Town. I mean, it was Shanghai, Beijing, Thailand, Sydney, New Zealand. I mean, it just goes on and on and on and on and on. So to really pick one Morocco, I mean, it's very hard to sort of say, this was my favorite one. I mean, I've. I've always been a massive fan of Morocco, and I really mean it. I mean, if I was to pick one, as far as a place goes, I really loved going back to Milan in large part because that's where I met my wife and my. I had Chrissy come with me, who is my wife. And, you know, we had. I think we had Jack at the time as well. So we went back and it was sort of super romantic for us because it's where we had met many years, many moods before. And we. I took, you know, we went back to the very first bridge. We first kissed on, stuff like that. So that was a really fun, personal trip for me, you know, and then there's places like South Africa, which are just, you know, to get to South Africa, it's this crazy trip, you know, and so you're not going to do it too often in your life, right? And then it's unbelievably breathtaking. You've gotten crazy beaches which have penguins on them. You know, it's like, what's that? You know? So, yeah, so. And we did beautiful photo shoots there. So I think that that was also one of those times where I'm like, I mean, I got to tell you, I love doing Top Model. I really did. I had. I enjoyed every moment of it. [00:27:57] Speaker B: I love that. And you know what? It shows. And I believe you 3,000%, by the way, Marrakesh and Cape Town are two of my favorites as well. Shot in both of those places, and they are unbelievably magical. So let's sort of fast forward a little bit to a show called the Face, which might not be as well known as Top Model, but very high profile. Naomi Campbell was a host. So you went from Tyra to Naomi. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Actually, I was the host. [00:28:24] Speaker B: You were the host? [00:28:24] Speaker A: I was the host. [00:28:25] Speaker B: I love that. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Naomi was the host of the British one. I was the host of the American one, the original. [00:28:30] Speaker B: Okay, you were on the British one or she was on. [00:28:34] Speaker A: So just. I'll go back a moment. So I was on Top Model Season 18. Stopped being on Top Model, we were kind of essentially all fired to some extent, or at least our contracts ran out and they weren't renewed. So we weren't exactly fired. But it was a little definitely controversial at the time, you know, and it's funny cause you wouldn't think, why, who cares? But actually it was such a big show that the fact that the entire cast had not been renewed was controversial. [00:28:59] Speaker B: It was controversial. And I remember it because of course, a lot of people were like, you know, you sort of have that nostalgia for the show. And I understand also just like fashion, the desire to sort of change it, move it forward. [00:29:11] Speaker A: No, exactly. It didn't work. But hey, you know, the funny thing was, is that one week after I had been announced and we went on, Listen, we went on CNN to talk to sort of Anderson Cooper about the fact that we had been taken off Top Model. That's how newsworthy it was. Just to give you an idea, it wasn't just like, oh, okay, magazine's gonna write about it. It was actually in the news. Right? So yeah, totally crazy. A week later we got a call from Shine, which was a. The production company for the Face, who had said that Naomi Campbell was creating a new show called the Face, all about teams of models working with supermodels as their mentors. And they were looking for a host for the show. And they were very interested in me now that I was available and was I interested in coming on, hosting the show and basically running the show as host with these teams of models, of which Naomi was going to be one and Coco Rocha and. And V were going to be the others. And I, you know, literally a week later said yes and jumped on it. And I mean, the irony there was that there was a long standing feud between the two supermodels, Tyra and Naomi, that was very publicly known. So. And that was not a reason for why I did it. It just so happened to be. But it certainly also was pressworthy as a result of it. So that became a thing as well. [00:30:23] Speaker B: Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, you could. By the way, that beef between Naomi and Tyra should actually be that show beef. You know what I mean? It actually would be a really gorgeous sort of Ryan Murphy production. But I think the interesting thing is Tyra really did connect with us audiences, audiences around the world. She had her talk show, many other things where she connected in a way that Naomi really doesn't and has a. Has difficulty doing. She is a legendary supermodel. She's one of the most beautiful women in the world still. But it's that thing about connectivity. So I was glad that you did that show, and I think it's. It's worth kind of taking a look at the clips of it to sort of. [00:31:05] Speaker A: I would actually highly recommend anyone who liked those sorts of shows to watch the face and check it out. In my opinion, as a fashion show, there was a lot of elements to it which were even more real and believable and a lot of learnings than there were, perhaps even was from America's Next Top Model. Yeah, America's Next Top Model was just a lot of fun as well, and was a ride. So, you know, and so that was a completely different one, a very different show. But I certainly enjoyed making both. [00:31:33] Speaker B: They're great. They're great. And by the way, Coco Rocha just signed a deal for a clothing line. And I mean, these are people that are beyond the label. You know, the labels that they have, too, which is so fantastic. You also wrote two books, which I can't believe, in 2010, the beauty equation, and in 2015, models of influence. Talk to me just quickly about Models of Influence and what, in your opinion, makes a great model and how has the beauty standard changed? [00:32:00] Speaker A: Well, I mean, that's really what the book is all about, right? So for me, Models of Influence was about what is a true supermodel, because it's a word that's bandied around a lot. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:11] Speaker A: You know, and it was. And at that moment, 2015, I think it was, when it was started to really get bandied around, because I sort of had grown up with, if you like, in the era of the supermodel, you know, the Christy Turlingtons, the Cindy Crawfords and Naomi Campbell's, for example, obviously Tyra Banks, you know, and there was always sort of controversy as to who else were supermodels. Who. What was the group? Was it that you were in Freedom, you know, George Michael's video or not? Who makes the cut? And so there were. It was all of a sudden, come the mid-2000s, and it was like, she's a supermodel. She's a supermodel. She's a supermodel. And you were like, wait a second. Her dad's just really well known. And I'm like, that's what happened there. And it sort of went on and on and on. And so we. I'm like, look, let's talk about this for a moment. Because really, when you dig down, in my opinion, the supermodels were really people who changed the industry and the vision of what it meant to. To be beautiful and what that and also the industry itself for women, women empowerment, all those things. And so the book is a historical reference that basically starts over 100 years ago and goes through from the very first women who were photographed as models who decided to be, you know, before originally Vogue used to be illustrations on the COVID You know, the very first woman on the COVID of Vogue. And what that meant and what that meant for women to people like Twiggy who cut their hair for the first time and look boyish, which today is like what so and but then was a huge thing because it was right off the edge of the 50s where women were sort of hourglass shaped and long hair and sort of housewives and that was the. Considered the norm for beauty. They weren't considered to be like, oh no, I'm going to be slightly militant, cut my hair and be boyish. Like that was a sort of outlandish behavior and made sort of international headlines. Even though Twiggy was really only a model for three years, you know, she's still a household name, you know. And so we go on through this and even. And someone like Coco actually is also in the book as a supermodel for me because she was also at the time when people were not taking, paying attention to social media, someone who dived headfirst into it and actually exploded on social media. And although now, yes, there are models with tens if not hundreds of millions of followers, there was a time when Coco was literally the queen of social media and she grasped that at a time when no one else did. So it's all about changing beauty standards, the business of beauty, you know, the first full figured models, Sophie Dahl's and the sort of risks they took doing nudes for sort of opium ads. But by the way, her ad caused people to literally crash off the highway because they see the pictures and they had to be taken down in the UK when it was put up on a roundabout and that was shot by Nick Knight, I believe. And it was just a stunning ad. But it was like the first time, you know, you didn't see full figured models and you certainly didn't see them as sort of nude and they certainly weren't doing fragrance campaigns, but why the heck not? She was gorgeous, beautiful, voluptuous. It was like the most gorgeous painting you'd ever seen. [00:34:56] Speaker B: I was just going to say it looks like a Renaissance painting and it's just gorgeous. [00:35:00] Speaker A: So we sort of talk about all these things in the book and then reference them as to why they are really the true supermodels of our time and models of color, you name it, throughout the first ones to really take the risks, from the obvious Iman's to Tyra and Naomi and so on and so forth. So that's what the book was about. And it became a New York Times bestseller. So that was really exciting. [00:35:19] Speaker B: A great book. It's a great reference book. For me, the term supermodel almost is bandied about too soon in someone's career. For me, a supermodel is about longevity. And the, like I said before, the idea that you connect with this person and you want to know who they are and what they're doing 20, 30, 40 years later, which is why we're still talking about Twiggy, why Linda Evangelista is still, you know, on a cover of Vogue and people go bananas, et cetera, et cetera. And now, weirdly, Cindy Crawford and Kya, now we have the daughters of those supermodels who are also supermodels and, you know, really leading very interesting lives as well. [00:35:59] Speaker A: So the cycle, it is interesting for sure. [00:36:02] Speaker B: So that's another book. [00:36:03] Speaker A: It is another book. I know, the mother daughter book. [00:36:06] Speaker B: The continuation. All right, now we have to switch gears because you did something that I loved, you know, really, really loved, which is you came up with a ready to wear cocktail. I think. What is the term for it, for what you're doing? [00:36:22] Speaker A: Well, people say ready to drink, right? So RTD is the sort of category. And what that really means is that it. It's ready to go. Like you don't have to do anything. So cocktails in general are a combination of alcohol, bitters, sometimes a fruit, you know, and. And it's just. And you shake them or you stir them on ice. Right. But it's that combination of alcohol and bitters, normally that makes a cocktail. Now if you have to make one yourself, you normally have to go to a bar, you've got to see a bartender, you've got to figure that out, what the ready to drink piece was. And that really arose during the pandemic when people didn't have access to bars they couldn't see bartenders, didn't know how to make a cocktail, loved having a cocktail. It was, you know, it's been a social thing for over 150, 200 years. And so what do we do? So a lot of the companies out there got really smart and started to pre make them. And, you know, that's what. You started a podcast that I worked on during the pandemic called the Shaken and Stirred show, which was my excuse for having a cocktail, mixing cocktails as an amateur and talking to people a bit like we are right now. And what it led to was us making. We did 135 episodes. It became syndicated by Univision, it was produced by Sony. We ended up getting really big sponsors and it sort of took off and had got a life of its own. And it also opened my eyes up to what was hip, what was happening in the cocktail world. And espresso martinis, as anyone knows, I don't have to tell you, are ridiculously. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Popular, by the way. I'm pissed off at you. You have not even mentioned in my espresso. He didn't even look at it. [00:37:50] Speaker A: He didn't even look in my espresso martini era. I love it. Sorry, you know what? The microphone is so large, covering most of it. And I don't have my glasses on dying. [00:37:59] Speaker B: That's my ego. My ego's just so big. Now here's the thing. In my espresso. Espresso. Is it espresso Espresso Espresso. [00:38:07] Speaker A: No X. [00:38:07] Speaker B: No X. [00:38:08] Speaker A: You might have an X after drinking too many. [00:38:10] Speaker B: But yes, in my espresso era, you literally are in your. And I saw you at an event and I was like, so why did you not do a tequila brand? Which, as we know, everybody's doing, so why did you not do that sort of route of I'm gonna do the brand. [00:38:28] Speaker A: So first of all, I'll take it back a second again as well on this one, because my career is basically. This is. It's not really a joke. It's actually kind of true. I've always looked at what other people do. I can't say I'm always the most original person. And as a photographer, I looked at a guy called Arnel and Fabrizio Ferry. And these were guys who were businessmen as well as photographers. Arnel bought all the billboards in Manhattan, pretty much. And if you wanted to advertise on them up and down Houston street, you had to book him or his firm, the Arnell Group, in order to be on those billboards. And so that was basically how that worked. So he ended up shooting nonstop, continuously because he owned most of the advertising space in the city, apart from anything. So that was. And I was like, God, that's a really smart move. Whoever thought of doing that? Fabrizio Fairey, you know, built photo studios in. In the. In New York Industria Photo Studios, which were one of the biggest, most well known photo studios in Manhattan. They're no longer around, but they were for a long time. And in Milan. And so people wanted to shoot there. They would have to obviously think about booking him. He also created his own fashion line. Yeah. So then he shot his own clothes, even had his own airline. He bought an island. He did all these things that were. That he then shot on. And so it was a tax write off. And everything was a tax write off. And so I was thinking things to myself. These guys are all really smart. And as I was doing this sort of this process, obviously models like Cindy Crawford in my book, you know, models of influence, who is an incredible businesswoman who changed the contract laws in modeling because of the deals that she did with Revlon. And we talk about that in the book. She also. Right. Created a furniture line. So I did the same. The NB collection, which she, by the way, opened for me in Chicago. [00:40:02] Speaker B: She's lazy. What's her. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Hers is Kacindi Crawford. Right, right, right. So she's not lazy. Boy, that same company makes all that stuff. And so she actually came and opened it for me. But what else did she do? Her husband, Randy Gerber, with George Clooney, started Casamigos. And so every time I would shoot with Cindy, she would bring her Casamigos, put it on the table, and she plugged it everywhere we went. In her green room, as a part of her rider was a bottle of Casamigos. It didn't matter what time it was. It could be 8 o' clock in the morning. Casamigos would be there chilling on the. And I go into a dressing room and it would be there. And I'm like, this is brilliant. I'm like. And then I thought to myself, why can't you know, I should be doing this? Wanted to do a furniture line. I created it because I thought, if she can, I can. And I'm like, well, if these guys can create an alcohol business and all these actors can, why can't I? And because of the podcast that had sort of plainly put me in the position of talking about and being not necessarily an expert, but someone who cared and loved cocktails. And I could see espresso martinis were very popular. However, every mixologist and bartender I had on my show complained constantly about how hard it was to make them. The consistency, the speed of execution. And then everywhere you went, there was a different recipe. And all the actual RTDs, the ready to drink cocktails that were already on the market failed in some way. They were either too Sweet, too bitter. Fake tasting or no creme ahead. So I set off on a two year mission. It was going to be six months, but it ended up being two years. Because I want to get it right. Trying to figure out how to make the perfect espresso martini. But it's one thing to make it for one person at a bar, it's another thing to bottle it and massive produce it and make sure it has shelf stability. And that's stuff that I had to learn. And I have a great partner, a guy called Philippe Roederer, whose years and years, 30 plus years in the business, he introduced vivaca code to the United States. [00:41:49] Speaker B: I was gonna say that's a champagne name. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker B: If you don't know. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker B: So you bring up something really interesting though is the bartenders work because there are certain drinks that if you know, you know, you do not order a Bloody Mary at, you know, on a Wednesday night, you know, they don't want to do it. They don't have the things. It's not the thing to do. I did not know this about espresso. Espresso martinis. But here's the thing. I don't like coffee. [00:42:15] Speaker A: You hear that, guys? I'm making James one right now as we speak. Isn't that a beautiful sound? [00:42:19] Speaker B: This is the, this one. [00:42:21] Speaker A: So this is my. I'm actually making him the Barker's Espresso Martini. It's 100% Colombian espresso coffee, six time, distilled vodka and caramelized brown sugar. And all you do is, what I just did was pour it into a shaker with ice. And I'm gonna give it a little shake now and you're gonna shake it. [00:42:38] Speaker B: This is great for the listener and for the viewer. Nigel, we are making a drink which by the way, it's like 10 o' clock in the morning, 5 o' clock somewhere, darling. [00:42:49] Speaker A: And by the way, the one good thing about an espresso martini is, and the reason why it's doing so well is because it has essentially taken over the brunch spot as well. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:58] Speaker A: So I'm going to make two here. I'm going to make one espresso martini. [00:43:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:01] Speaker A: And I'm going to make our other expression, which is the cappuccino martini, because like so many people out here, actually I'll do it in this class. Like so many people in the world. The espresso martini, as it sounds, is made with espresso. That means it's a black coffee. If you put milk in an espresso James, What? [00:43:18] Speaker B: Do you get drunk? [00:43:20] Speaker A: It's not a trick question. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Really drunk? [00:43:22] Speaker A: No, no. If you put milk into a coffee, is it. Is it an espresso anymore? [00:43:25] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't drink coffee. [00:43:27] Speaker A: Okay, so if you put milk in a coffee, you get a latte or a cappuccino. Right, right, right, right. So it's not. I think it's not a trick question. This is very simple. This is the reason why he's doing fashion. People, you know, hey, thank God there's a job for him. He's good at talking, too, so this podcast should be a success. [00:43:40] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. [00:43:41] Speaker A: So this is really good at drinking. I basically, yes. Well, that's also a skill that you learn in the fashion industry. This is. I was like, look, I'm a purist. I'm like, look, if you're going to put milk in your. In your espresso martini, it's not an espresso martini, folks. And pretty much 50% of the people out there like their espresso martini with Bailey's or some kind of cream option. So we're like, okay, look, I'm not going to fight it. I'm going to make it, but I'm going to call it a cappuccino martini. My God. Revelations, right? Like, how brilliant is that? Except for the fact it really was brilliant, because guess what? When we went to register this name, it didn't exist. No one in America or anywhere in the world had registered a cappuccino martini. [00:44:20] Speaker B: Okay? So this is why I love and hate you at the same time. [00:44:24] Speaker A: Because. [00:44:26] Speaker B: We just gotta get. Listen to that sound. This is really one of the best sounds that. And the champagne cork is. You really did tap into something that is so sort of obvious. And who knew that it didn't exist? All right, so I'm gonna taste. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Who knew that you needed it so much, too. I mean. [00:44:44] Speaker B: All right, so I'm going to taste. This is the swan. [00:44:47] Speaker A: And you can see it's a perfect black ebony bottom with a beautiful white crema head. And actually, one thing I'm missing are three coffee beans on the top, which for all of those of you out there, that's, you know, that's the perfect thing. That's. You're meant to put that on top. And that's for wealth, health, and happiness. What do you think? [00:45:00] Speaker B: It is delicious. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:45:02] Speaker B: And I will say this. I don't love coffee. I don't drink coffee. I don't order espetho martinis, but that is delicious. And what I love about it, because I do love a cocktail and we do have a cocktail hour pretty much every night, is the idea that you can do this simply. But the result is really good. I mean, this tastes like you are at the best bar in the city or any major, major city across the country. [00:45:28] Speaker A: So we literally, we aim to use only the best products. You know, we actually distill our own vodka in Lansdale, Pennsylvania, six times distilled. We bring the cream in of that one you're drinking right now all the way from Wisconsin, and we blend it and make our own dairy liqueur. And you can actually make that into an ice cream too, because the alcohol level, they're 40 proof and 32 proof. 32 proof cappuccino is low enough in alcohol that you can freeze it because it has to be below 18% ABV. [00:45:54] Speaker B: All right, so I'm going to say something that is one of the best things I've ever, ever had as a cocktail. It is delicious. The cream tastes completely fresh. And in my mind, like you just said, is this going to be like the next dessert as well? Because it is that good. And the colors and what it's doing is exactly what you want for a cocktail. [00:46:19] Speaker A: I know, right now imagine it with a flaming marshmallow on top, or, you know, like the three chocolate covered cocoa beans and a sprinkle of coffee, chocolate powder or coffee powder on top. You can do all kinds of fun things with an espresso martini. And the reality is, is that, you know, this is what they should look like, but they sadly don't look like this all too often when you go to a bar, right? And bartenders suffer. So one, we've created something that you can now make at home, which is, you know, this is fabulous espresso or cappuccino. And the second piece of it is, is that bars and restaurants and hotels are going everywhere using ours as a base or even sometimes actually just telling everyone this is what it is. So I say as a base because you can add your favorite other liqueurs to this and build on it. [00:47:02] Speaker B: So first of all, you posted on Instagram, this company was launched last September, correct? To come where you are, what is it, six months, seven months? I don't know. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Yeah, about eight, nine months now. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Eight or nine months to have two. You are in how many markets across the country? [00:47:20] Speaker A: So we're in now in 20 states. We'll be in 30 states by the end of the year. We will start to go global by the end of the Year and the beginning Q1 of next year, we actually have seven SKUs. So we. We have them in the 700, the 375. We have it in the 200 millimeter can, and we also have it in a box, which is a. With a. With a. Like a keg, you know, so you basically, you know, it comes right out of bag in a box, and that's a 1.75. And they've done incredibly well. I mean, we've beaten all our. All the things that we hoped on the numbers we were looking to hit. We've smashed them. And we can't believe that it would be that popular. We hoped it would be, but you can never, you know, you always hope for the best, but you plan to be, you know, conservative to some extent. So you can figure it out. But the espresso martini has a world of its own, quite frankly. And on top of that, it was so great timing. But you got to have the liquid. I can market it as much as I like. And, you know, as you can see, the packaging is really quite beautiful and not, like, ready to drink, like on the rocks or some of the other ones out there, which are sort of. Can be quite garish, if you, you know, if you don't mind me saying, we try to be quite iconic with the labeling when it was all done in house by my team. And I think that. But, you know, realistically, too, once you taste the liquid, what you just said is if you have that reaction from someone that's like, wow, that's not what I expected. Then people come back, and so the reorder rate is off the charts. [00:48:37] Speaker B: Right. Well, here's the thing. And, you know, I love a label. So this label, what I love about it is it feels almost prohibitiony. It feels a little bit like it's going to look good next to your whiskeys, your, you know, rise, all of those classic, classic drinks. It doesn't stand out as something that is, like, as easy as it is. So that's what I love. I think the bottle is fantastic. Nigel, this is really, really. I'm just so excited by what you do. [00:49:07] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:49:08] Speaker B: What you bring not only to the worlds of fashion and media, but just your. Your energy. And the whole reason I wanted to do this podcast, Label Queen, was to get behind the label of who somebody is and not pigeonhole who we think we are. And your career has been a real masterclass in sort of curiosity, exploring, jumping in, and this kind of idea of like, you don't have to be the One thing is what's so exciting to me. So I really, really thank you for being here. And these are delicious. [00:49:39] Speaker A: Thank you very much. I tell you, this is one thing I've always believed, is that you as an individual, have to believe in yourself. If you rely on other people believing in you or liking what you do or saying, you've got it. I'm afraid you're probably not going to succeed as an artist. You have to be the one who knows when to put the paintbrush down. You don't turn around and say, should I paint another iris or a sunflower. No, you put your pen, your paintbrush down. You go, I'm done. As a photographer, you take the picture, I've got it. As a designer, you create the frock. That's it, right? And that's the same thing. You've got to go for it. If you don't believe in yourself, no one else will. And if you give yourself a chance. If I had thought I could write a book, you know, which I didn't think I could, but I went for it. Furniture, I went for it. Alcohol, I went for it. You know. TV show, I went for it. Modeling, I went for it. Go for it, guys. It's your life. You live once. Do it right, you won't regret it. [00:50:33] Speaker B: Bravo. Here's to that. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you. Appreciate it. Five o'. [00:50:37] Speaker A: Clock. [00:50:37] Speaker B: Some more.