Label Queen with Dennis Golonka

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to Label Queen. All my label queens out there. I'm so excited to be doing this and I thank you for watching and listening. And if you are watching, it's great because I put some imagery up to support the podcast. And if you're listening, I try to explain what's going on as well, image wise. So that is the word that I wanted to talk about today, which is image. And I so fascinatedly attracted to this term, image. And for some reason it popped into my, my brain this morning how closely related the word image and imagine is. And I'm not even sure if they're, they're connected in terms of origin. I would assume so, but who knows? Somebody else can tell me that. And by the way, email me at Label Queen [email protected] if you have any of the answers that I propose. Anyway, image. Image is really interesting. I was mowing my lawn the other day, which is something I do, and somebody drove by, pulled in the driveway and took a picture of me and said, what are you doing? You're a fancy ass dude. I would never expect you to be mowing the lawn. Well, guess what? I got to mow the lawn. I love mowing the lawn. And it's like something I do. But I realized what he was saying was the image that I put out there that I project is the exact opposite of that of someone who would mow their own lawn. Anyway, I thought it was interesting. And I've run up against this in my life where I think people think Mark and I run around our house in tuxedos and we're sort of like, it's five o' clock and the tuxedo comes on and it's cocktail hour. And when we have parties, people fret about what they're gonna wear and call me and like, what's the dress code and all of that. So I get it. I put that image out there. I live in the world of fashion and I love it. But that's why I wanted to do this podcast, Label Queen. It is just one part of me. In fact, it's actually, I hope not the most interesting part of me. So the image that we put out there, honestly, is so fascinating and how people are rigid with their image and how some people play with their image. I think Madonna is the perfect example of that. Who shape shifts, but the image kind of, or the expectation or how we view somebody is always there in the back of our mind. And I love people that if you look at them 30 years ago, they look exactly the same as they do now, whether it's a haircut, a style, whatever it is. And I love people that shift it up and do something different and shake it up and all of those things. So image is really interesting, and it brought me to my highs and lows of the week. And I also want to talk about the highs and lows, because I don't judge either side. The lows for me are often highs, and sometimes the highs can be a little bit of a low. What they really are things that are fascinating me and things that I think are important to the conversation that I'll be having later. And they all relate to image. So let's start with my lows. And I know a lot of people are talking about this. This might be a little bit late because, as you know, I tape this out of Sequen. However, the show on Netflix called Hunting Wives, based on a novel starring Malin Ackerman and Britney Snow. This show is a batshit, bananas, crazy. So fun to watch. So ridiculous. Do I think it's gonna win an Emmy award? I don't think so. Do I think it's the most brilliant writing? Probably not. It is a shit ton of fun to watch. And I will say this shocking. I've seen things on this show that I don't think I've ever seen on television before, and that's saying a lot. And it really has all of those juicy things that you want for a summer read or a summer show. Of course, Glamorous location, glamorous women doing glamorous things. Uh, of course, there's a murder. There might be one or two. Um, but it really delves into some things where I think a lot of people are gonna kind of question a lot. So it's on the minds of everybody. I'm putting it in my low because it's just really the basis level of entertainment that you can get. But, honey, it is a lot more fun than. And just like that and some of the other things we've had to slog through. So it's great. My high. And this really is directly related to image and my guest today. I recently went to the Diane Arbus exhibition at the Park Avenue Armory in New York City. I do hope this show travels. I think it might be. This is a compilation and collection of. I don't know if it's all of Diane's work, but it's certainly over. I don't even know how many images are in this. This exhibit. It is beautifully crafted, beautifully staged. These im are small. These are not large print work, so you really have to get up at close. But it's designed in a way where all of the images have mirrors on the back. You walk through the images, there's giant mirrors. And what it said to me was the image that you're looking at and if you just kind of go one way or the next, you might be looking at the face, the actual face of somebody else looking at an image. So it's all about who we are and looking at each other. And Diane's work is really probably most famous for a side of society that most people don't know about or probably wish didn't exist. A lot of probably in those days the term transvestites and drag queens and sort of nudist colonies and bikers and kind of fringe society, which of course I love and am attracted to. But the work also represents social people of the day and a sort of high society as well. And a lot of people say that the work of the drag queens and the nudist colonies and the twins and all of those famous images are really shocking. And I have to say for me it's more shocking to see the high society images. There's such an artifice to that image that is presented as opposed to the rawness and the realness of the fringe society who just like anybody, want to be seen. And it's a fascinating, fascinating exhibition. I hope you go and see it. I think it might have ended, but I hope you at least kind of, you know, Google Diane Arbus, really look at the work. Hopefully this exhibition will travel and you'll find it in your city. The other thing that I wanted to mention as a high, because I think it's directly related and talk about Image is a 2013 documentary called Finding Vivian Mayer by John Maloof. And this documentary is so fabulous and it bears mentioning because this is basically the story of a man who found a cadre of negatives at an auction and bought them. This is in Chicago. And what he found when he started to develop these Images were over 100,000 images of a unknown street style photographer, or I should say secret street photographer. Not necessarily style, but style absolutely is part of it. And they were discovered after her death where she spent her entire life being a nanny in Chicago. Nobody knew she was a photographer. The family that she cared for for many years didn't know. There's a lot of controversy about her particular nannying skills and style. But the work is extraordinary and it's hon the same level as, as Diane Arbus, who by The Way was a published photojournalist. She was working for newspapers and magazines. These are images that were unknown that get to the heart and soul of who we are as a society at a certain time. And please, please, please find this documentary. I'm happy to talk about it because it's always on my brain. I also think it would be a fascinating film. I've already cast Cate Blanchett in the main role and maybe someday I should just be a director because this, this story needs to be seen cinematically. It's just fantastic. Okay, now that brings me to my favorite part of the pod, which is when I introduce my guest for the day. And the. Like I said, these things are all related. So this today I have a. Well, first of all, I'll premise this by saying he's a photographer. He fell in love with photography at a very early age when his parents and I love this. Built a dark room in the basement of their home. How great is that, you know, to have that sort of thing that you can play with that your parents encourage, who, as you hear, they probably wanted it to be more of a hobby, but it became a profession. My guest today is a photographer and director. He's the founder of UTP magazine, He is an author, and he's the co host of the wildly popular podcast Blow Up When Liz Tilbaras Transformed Harper's Bazaar. He is a true label queen. My guest today is Dennis Golonka. Stay tuned. Dennis Galanka. James, you're here. [00:10:12] Speaker A: I am. [00:10:13] Speaker B: I'm so excited to have you because one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast called Label Queen is really about the labels we put on ourselves, the labels other people put on us. But you really are a label queen because you do so many things. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. [00:10:31] Speaker B: I mean, you really, you really do. And not only are you inspiring, you're talented at every single thing you touch. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:10:38] Speaker B: And they're so diverse. So we're gonna go through this a little bit. I wanna. Before we start about really kind of one of the main reasons you're here. So one of the things that really stood out about your bio is you said that as a child your parents built a dark room in their basement. First of all, what age were you when they did that? [00:11:00] Speaker A: I think I was around 12. 12 or 13. [00:11:03] Speaker B: So that's young. What do you think it was that A drew you to the D and eventually photography in general? [00:11:11] Speaker A: I think it was a couple things. First of all, I had this isolated area that was all mine. I Mean, it was for the family, but I was the only one who became obsessed and used it all the time. And then just seeing something come from nothing, seeing an image and then a piece of paper, and then all of a sudden that image appearing on that paper and then being able to manipulate it or change it or, you know, play around with it and know, like, oh, I can take my camera and I can do this and then come here and do that and do it all by myself. I don't need anybody. I'm just doing it by myself. But you know what the ironic thing is? I. You know, my parents did that, and they so desperately, my whole life wanted me to find a career. Like, from the age of five, they were like, what do you want to do? And do it and be the best? You know what I mean? But they were, like, so focused on that. And then I did develop this passion for photography, but that was just seen as a hobby. That was never gonna be a moneymaker. Do not go to school for that. Do not focus on that, because that's just your hobby. Good, you have a fun hobby. And it's ironic that it did turn into being my, you know, moneymaker. But, yeah, I was very young, okay? [00:12:19] Speaker B: So that's really what interests me, because as you say, a hobby, as we know, when you're kids, you sort of run hot with something. You know, I thought I was gonna be Batman, whatever it is. You really did go to school to be in this image and photography. And I'm gonna fast forward a little bit because it bears mentioning that post college sva. Correct. School of Visual Arts in New York. You landed your first job at Harper's Bazaar. Okay, so what year was that? [00:12:52] Speaker A: 92. [00:12:53] Speaker B: Okay, so 1992 was really a seismic shift in the world of media, fashion, really, kind of where celebrity models, the world, the general pop, were really attuned to what was happening. And something happened very, very specially at Harper's Bazaar in 1992. Specifically, September 1992. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Correct. [00:13:18] Speaker B: All right. I am wearing. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Yes, you are. Yes, you are. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Because, you know, it's all about method interviewing here. [00:13:25] Speaker A: I love it, James. [00:13:26] Speaker B: So 1992, Ms. Tilbarris takes over. Harp is Bazaar. Linda Evangelista is the COVID model. Patrick DeMalchier photographed it. Fabian Baron was the art director. You land your first job there. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Okay, before we talk about that time, did you know what you were stepping into? [00:13:46] Speaker A: Absolutely not. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Okay, this is what I didn't know, because as somebody who grew up wanting to be a photographer playing with photography, did you know that the fashion world existed. Did you know that magazines existed? [00:13:58] Speaker A: No, no. Let me step back a little bit. I actually went to college and got my BA in psychology. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:06] Speaker A: And then I moved to New York, New York, to pursue a master's degree, and I was accepted to the new School of Social Science Research. And then upon preparing to come here and make my move, figured out where I was living. They made a mistake, and I was told that was a mistake. You were actually. Were not accepted. Oh. And I was like, oh, my God. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Very fashion, by the way. Right. Oh, I'm sorry, you're not on the list. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah, you're not on the list. And so I was like, well, I'm moving to New York anyway. And so then I ended up coming here and I ended up going to Yeshiva University. And because I was like, I have to go to school while I'm there, you know, And I ended up getting on the. You. You have to do an internship while you're studying. And I worked at Montefiore Medical center, and they put me on the cancer unit. And so I was this young 20 year old counseling cancer patients, and all they wanted to do was talk about insurance. And it was really depressing. And then I dropped out, and then I got into sva. And then that changed everything because living in New York, having my roommates and so forth, I realized they were all in the arts. And I realized, oh, you can support yourself in the arts. You can pursue your passions in New York. [00:15:17] Speaker B: You can have a career. [00:15:18] Speaker A: You can have a career. And so. But I really still didn't know about magazines. And it was one day I had. And I had been assisting a little bit. I worked for Rebecca Blake, who was most famous for the Eyes of Laura Mars with Faye Dunaway. I don't know if you've ever seen. Saw that movie. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Of course. And by the way, if you're a fashion person, it's high on the list of fashion movies that you must watch if you're in fashion. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:41] Speaker B: What did she do for the film? [00:15:43] Speaker A: Faye based her character on Rebecca Blake and she also, in the gallery opening scene, Helmut Newton. And Rebecca Blake did all those photos. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Amazing. And I think. Let's take the listener back a bit. Those shoots were epic, cinematic, you know, burning cars. [00:16:02] Speaker A: Burning cars, fighting women. Yes, yes. [00:16:04] Speaker B: Fur, Big makeup and all of that. Big hair, big makeup. All of it. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:09] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:16:10] Speaker A: So I started working with her and she moved into video and film. And I wasn't interested in video film. I was interested in still. And my. I think my last shoot with Her. We were doing Prince's Cream video, and I. Well, here's a funny story for you, James. I went and said hi to him, and he said something to me. I have no idea what he said. To this day, I have no idea what he said. And then I just laughed because it seemed like that was an appropriate response. And then he went to Rebecca, said something to her. They both looked at me. And then a couple minutes later, I was told, I can leave the set. And then the following week, I was fired. [00:16:50] Speaker B: You are so. Here we go. This is such a great intro. Another great introduction into the world of fashion. Yeah. And interesting that you were doing what you thought was a lovely, nice thing to do. And who. I mean, I hate that you don't know what he said, but to laugh at something that you don't know what he said might have instigated. But great lesson. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Although I will tell you, we did one interview with somebody, I think it was Alison Edmond, and she mentioned that one of Prince's things, you know, obviously he's passed now, but was not to look him in the eye. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:24] Speaker A: And I'm pretty sure I was looking him in the eye. So maybe it was looking him in the eye. I don't know. But anyway, as I said earlier before we started, everything happens for a reason. It's all about timing. And from there is. I saw the Linda Evangelista cover on a bus going by, and I was like, what is that? And I called them, and then I got the job there. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Okay, so landline call, I'm sure. And somebody picked up. You get into the art department. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:17:52] Speaker B: Fabian Baron was the art director at that time. [00:17:54] Speaker A: A creative director. [00:17:55] Speaker B: Creative director. Okay. So I want to take the listener and the viewer back a bit, because I think it has to be mentioned that this new era of elegance was pretty much directly related to Alexey Brodovich and his incredible art design from Harper's Bazaar from 1934-58. So while this time seems so new and so fresh, so elegant and so elevated and so clean and all of those things, there really is a direct link. However, it was completely of the day. Talk to me a little bit about those correlations and how it played out in the rooms behind the scenes. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, Alexi's time there was incredible. And then from Alexi's time there, you know, even the 70s were pretty special. And then the 80s, not so much. And so Hearst wanted to bring back bizarre, bring back the glory days, the Alexi days. And so they hired Liz and Liz Went into her meetings and basically said, you know, well, this is what I'm gonna need to do this. This is how much money I'm gonna need, you know, which was basically an open checkbook. And they were like, yeah, we basically, we want prestige. We wanna be a competitor for Vogue, basically. And she came in there and she did ex. Did reference Alexei. Like, that was something that all of them, Tawny Goodman, Paul Kovaco, Liz Fabian, they all were aware of the history of bizarre and they wanted to look upon it and reflect on it, but they wanted to take it someplace else. They didn't want to just copy it, they wanted to bring it to where we were at at that time, the 90s. And I think they did. [00:19:42] Speaker B: They definitely did. And I think that there's so much richness there. By the way, I have this book, bizarre 150 years. So it's not like this is a blip, really, in the legacy of Bizarre. However, it fits so beautifully and it's so wonderful. And I think it's really important when you're looking at media, when you're looking at fashion, to understand the before, during and after. Yes, you mentioned the competition with Vogue, specifically Anna and Liz, both Brits, both expats had known each other and worked together. Maybe not worked together, but sort of were in the same. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Well, they did work together at British Vogue. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Exactly. Okay, so it already kind of came with. By the way, Ryan Murphy, if you're listening, this might be a good feud. Right, right. The feud series. [00:20:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:34] Speaker B: Even though they were often pitted against each other in ways where Anna was the ice queen and da da da da da. And Liz was the nice one and approachable and understandable. So I want to talk a little bit about this because it really is important. And in one of your podcasts, which we're going to talk about, there's a anecdote which really struck me. With Liz Tilbarris terminated or fired in editor, they often left the room feeling like they've won. Talk to me about that personality trait that would make one feel like that, because it is how we need to lead. To me, it's the most inspiring thing I've heard about her. Talk to me a little bit about that. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Well, I was never fired. I ended up. So I didn't have that experience, but I know a lot of friends who were let go. And yes, you never felt like you were fired when you were called into Liz's office. I remember one person, a high profile person, and she was given a diamond tennis bracelet. And so to Be given a gift like that and then be let go, it's hard to be mad at that, you know, but she, no matter if she was firing you, no matter if she was reprimanding you, no matter if she was, you know, furious with you, the way she would deliver her messages was always through kindness. There was, there was never this hostility or this anger. She was a very calm, British, lovely person. And I'm sure inside at times she was like, you know. But no, she never showed it and it made, it made the environment so comfortable. And I always say, to this day, I do best when I'm not driven by fear. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Thank you. I mean, that is such a great lesson. And I have a little bit of a story with Liz Tilbaras. When I was at Bergdorf Goodman, we wanted to do Windows based on one of the issues. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:30] Speaker B: And I was working with the great Linda Fargo and how are we gonna do this? And Liz, of course, got wind of this concept and she was very excited about it and she invited us to her office, which I was thrilled because, like I'm wearing this T shirt. These images were just, you know, to me it was the Olympus of the Olympics of where you wanna go. This was the gold medal. So we go to the office and we have a lovely meeting. And I asked her, looked her into the eye and asked her, you know, what do you, how do you deal with criticism of what you're doing? And the first thing she said was, I look at the stationary on which the letter was written. What, what. And what that meant was if it had little flowers or if it felt like this stat just wasn't chic enough, she knew that it wasn't going to be a comment worth her, you know, and by the way, this is when you would write a letter to an editor in chief. So I just thought it was great. My takeaway from that meeting was the curiosity factor. She was so ravenously curious about how we were going to take a two dimensional page and turn it into a three dimensional, another form of visual art in a window at Bergdorf Goodman. And I just, I cherished that meeting because it was really an insight into how her mind worked, which wasn't me, me, me, it was you. And how are we gonna do this? [00:23:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:59] Speaker B: And I'm interested, right? [00:24:01] Speaker A: Yes. That was one of the special things about her is she trusted her people to do their jobs. She wasn't micromanaging you. And I think that's what made a lot of the magic happen, is people felt empowered to take risks. [00:24:16] Speaker B: Okay, so we're gonna talk about Risk. So fast forward, you tell me you're doing a podcast, and the podcast is wildly popular and successful right out of the gate. It's called Blow Up When Liz Tilbarris Transformed Harper's Bazaar. When you told me this, I have to say, I was like, is there really gonna be an interest in this? And, boy, was I wrong, because you've had everybody on, from Linda Evangelista, cover girl extraordinaire, to Amber Valletta, to Christy Turlington, all of the art directors, all of the behind the scenes people. Tell me why you think it's hit a nerve and why it's so successful. [00:24:59] Speaker A: I think the story is very powerful, and I think it was a story that people forgot about or didn't know about now. So for me, in you, this was, you know, when we were entering, this is when life of passion was happening, and this was gospel. And for the longest time, I thought, of course, everyone knows about the relaunch of Bizarre, and what an amazing seven years that was when Liz was at the helm and the attention it garnered and the awards, and just what Liz went through with her cancer and Princess Diana being involved in all of that, it's like, oh, my God, just saying it right now, I'm like, this is a movie. And then one day after Covid, I was talking to my partner, and she was like, you know, there's not a lot of information out there about Liz Bizarre Fabian during that time 92. And I was like, that's crazy. And she was absolutely right. And we both were coming out of other projects, and Covid made me reevaluate a lot of things, and I was wanting to do something new, step out of our world of fashion, of photography a little bit. And so we were like, okay, let's do a podcast. Let's see who would step into this. And so we started putting out feelers and seeing who would want to be involved and who would let us interview them. And. And honestly, James, just everybody wanted to do it. Everybody wanted to share their story and tell us about that time. And so we were like, this is running itself. Like, we just need to make the calls and get the people in front of us. And then they were more than happy to reminisce about it. [00:26:29] Speaker B: I love it. I mean, for me, it's a documentary that needs to happen, which probably will, and probably a book deal, but that might be happening. Is that true? [00:26:38] Speaker A: We are, yes. We were approached by Eve McSweeney, who's with Colored. She's a literary Agent now, but she was at Bazaar as the features director towards the end of me being there. And then she was at Vogue for 10 years as features director. So she's the perfect literary agent. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:58] Speaker A: And actually this week we've been working on the book proposal under her guidance and so forth. And we know there are a couple publishers that have already reached out to her. Right. And so it looks promising. [00:27:14] Speaker B: Okay, so what I love about this is, and this doesn't, kind of highly abnormal that you would have somebody in your back porner corner who speaks the same language. Like, she knows she was there, she speaks the language and she understands the reach. [00:27:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:27:29] Speaker B: And I don't think, I mean, you mentioned Princess Diana. These were like. I mean, this was the time when this was headline making news. Princess Diana had left Prince Charles. She was coming into her own dimacier. The haircut, the set sittings where she seemed so glamorous, but so real and so attainable. This was wonderful times. I mean, I wanna go back to Vogue at that time, because to me, I can't imagine. Were there conversations about Vogue, about the competition? Were you guys sort of like, well, if they do this, we're gonna do this, or were you just doing your own thing? [00:28:16] Speaker A: Good question. And something that is. That has come up. We were really just doing our own thing. I mean, Vogue, every month the issue would be passed around and we would all look at it. I mean, it was part of your job. Look at it, see what they're doing, see who the photographers are, see who the models they're using. Da, da, da, da. But really, it really was not more than that. Like, we might make a snide remark and be like, oh, did you see? You know. But no, it really wasn't referenced that much. I mean, the big reference was always, don't talk to the press. Don't get involved in this drama. You know. And again, as far as the press went, it worked to both their advantage. Of course, you know, of course it wasn't. It wasn't something that hurt anybody. It, you know, presses press. But bad or good, right? Yep. And so, yeah, no, I don't. I don't think it was talked about so much. It really was. [00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it was such a perfect time pre social media, pre kind of pre Internet, all of the things, you know, that. That kind of ruin everything now. Okay. So as you may or may not know, if you listen to the podcast, I reach out and ask a friend or colleague to ask you a question. So I reached out to the dear Fabulous. Somebody who worked at Harper's Bazaar. I don't know what her years were, but she was the style director there. The fabulous Wendy Goodman. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Oh, sweet Wendy. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Sweet Wendy. Sister of Tawny, who was also at Bazaar. Two people that understand media style like nobody else 100%. And the enthusiasm and the time. And are still as prolific today as they were then. And just so exciting. So I asked Wendy, and in her wendiness, she. She kind of gave me a great question, but I'm gonna rework it because, you know, the way her mind works. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:30:15] Speaker B: So she kind of prefaces this question with working with Fabienne. The sky was not even the limit. The universe was ever expanding. Nothing was impossible. So she wanted to ask you what was the most challenging shoot to produce? And what shoot, kind of behind the scenes, did you think to yourself, how are we going to do that? Were you involved in those conversations pre. After. Talk to me about the. The hugeness and the impact of these shoots? And was there ever a time where you were like, there's no way we can do this? [00:30:55] Speaker A: First of all, no was never an answer. No was never gonna be an answer. I. I had one time that I said no to something, and I was pulled aside and I was told, we have an open checkbook. There is. No. No, there is. Go figure it out. And that's how I was brought up in this business. And to this day, when I have an assistant or a coworker and they're like, oh, we can't do that. I'm just like, what? No, of course we can't. [00:31:22] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I will say without getting into. But there were times with certain photographers who today maybe don't have the best reputation, and there were some things that had gone down. We were working with some of those people at that time. And I'm sure anyone who's listening or you know who I'm talking about. So there were. There were. There was one shoot I can think of where there was some concern, and that was. That was a little awkward. And I'd say that was my most challenging time to produce a shoot when. When we knew there was stuff going on. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Okay, so these were. These were huge shoots. And I want to talk about probably my favorite shoot. [00:32:06] Speaker A: Oh, good. [00:32:07] Speaker B: At Harper's Bazaar during that time. And see what your relationship to this is. So I'm in the book for the listeners. Bizarre 150 years, the greatest Moments. And it's a great compilation of 150 years of Harper's Bazaar. And this time in particular 92 to 2001. There was a shoot. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Yes. Called. [00:32:29] Speaker B: I guess, I don't know what. [00:32:30] Speaker A: Angel. [00:32:30] Speaker B: Angel. Simply angel by Peter Lindbergh. And it is the gorgeous and sophisticated and lovely Amber Valletta as an angel walking through Times Square. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Yes. There's Paul Kovaco. [00:32:44] Speaker B: There's Paul Kovacco in the most cinematic, beautiful way that. I mean, this is beyond editorial. [00:32:54] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:54] Speaker B: I mean, this is art. I want to reference this picture in Grand Central Station because she's shot from behind. All you see are her wings. Uh, it's sort of probably the morning of, you know, Grand Central waking up. What struck me about this image then versus now is I don't even know if there's a fashion credit line. [00:33:14] Speaker A: Okay, good, James. Yes, exactly. [00:33:16] Speaker B: So. So there's no idea where. Ugh. We have to load this with credits for advertisers. There's a freedom here. So not only is she in the wings representing all her virginal freedomness, there's a freedom from expectation of commerce. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:34] Speaker B: In a. In a very commercial magazine. Talk to me about that. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Such a good point and such a great observation. And when we interviewed Amber, she too brought that up. She was like, you know, there's a close up of my face. There's no product. We're not selling anything. And when we interviewed Isaac Mizrahi as well, he brought this up. He's like, you know, the difference between Bizarre and Vogue was Vogue was about selling the product, selling the clothing. Bazaar was not that. They were not about selling. They were about fantasy, they were about creating imagery. They were about, you know, developing something artistic that wasn't out there. And this story, which is one of the most iconic stories I think, that Bizarre ever did. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Is exactly that. It's, you know, their scale is either really far away. You can't even see the clothes. It's a tight face. You can't see the clothes. It's the back of the wing that you just pointed out. It's not about the clothing, it's about the imagery. And I think that's one of the things that Bizarre really embraced and I loved about them. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Okay. So my hope is that there is a movie about these years and that you will be the director and we get to recreate and see these beautiful shoots come to life cinematically. I mean, I just think it would be so amazing. So amazing. [00:34:48] Speaker A: I agree. I agree. [00:34:50] Speaker B: So we're gonna kind of quickly wrap up on the bizarre years. 92 to 95. Carte blanche, open wallet, as you yourself say. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:00] Speaker B: And Then it got a little tighter. Talk to me briefly about when it started to button up a little bit. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Yes. So I think it was around 95, 96. And if you look at the covers, it reflects that, because that's when celebrities started to make a big appearance. [00:35:13] Speaker B: Okay. Celebrities ruin everything. I'm sorry. I'm just gonna say it. They really do. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:19] Speaker B: They've taken over podcasting, they've taken over overcovers. [00:35:22] Speaker A: They see the money in it, and then all of a sudden, they're diving in. [00:35:25] Speaker B: Meanwhile, guess who makes no money? Me. Whatever. Okay. So. So celebrities start to kind of make their way. And Anna really started that as well. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, Vanity Fair really is who started that. [00:35:37] Speaker B: And then Vanity Fair wasn't a fashion magazine in the same way. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Correct. But it was selling, and people were looking at, like, what magazines are making money, you know? And so they were trying to dissect that, like, why is Vanity Fair making all this money? And it's like, oh, well, they have celebrities on the COVID So they. Then people were like, let's try celebrities. And it's interesting when you think about the celebrity thing from. From then to now, because back then, you would pull these celebrities, but they were used to a portrait and an interview, and all of a sudden, magazines were like, we're doing a fashion story on you. But they still didn't know how to become what models were, which was like Linda, the icon of transforming. What do you want me to be? I'm going to be anything. Where celebrities were like, I'm being shot by you, but I'm still, you know, Julia Roberts. And so evolving that into where it is today, which a lot of celebrities now. Oh, yeah. I'll be. I'll be your fantasy. I'll be whatever you want. But back then, it was a little tricky, so. But it was a moneymaker, and people knew, you know, having certain celebrities on the COVID were gonna sell more. Yeah. And they wanted to make money. Bizarre. [00:36:37] Speaker B: So, I mean, listen, it's fair. There were great years of amazingness, and it's fair. I have this thing about the celebrity cover. I don't think it happens as much anymore. But, like, there was a time when, like, if you were a couple, like, if you were dating somebody or whatever or marrying somebody, you would do the COVID together. And probably 98.9% of those couples are divorced right now. So don't do the COVID Don't do the COVID Just word of caution, every. [00:37:08] Speaker A: Couple that did bizarre in the 90s all broke up. All of them. [00:37:12] Speaker B: I don't know why I'm laughing, but it's hysterical. [00:37:14] Speaker A: It's true. [00:37:15] Speaker B: Okay, so I want to ask you one last question about Bizarre. What do you think Liz Tilbarris would think of today's landscape and what would her Bazaar look like today? [00:37:27] Speaker A: I love this question, James. See, it's interesting, because on one level, because she was such an incredible woman, I wonder if she would still be doing Bizarre today. [00:37:39] Speaker B: Great answer. [00:37:39] Speaker A: You know what I mean? I mean, would she be doing a podcast? You know, this is where we're at right now. I mean, and she was all about the movement, so I'm not quite sure that she would still be doing Bizarre. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Okay. And it ties back to the curiosity factor that I found in her when I met her briefly. And I think. I think you're 100% right. How did working at Bazaar inform your personal work as a photographer? [00:38:04] Speaker A: I'd say it was a struggle at first because I was so inspired by the greatest people of our time. You know, the Davidson, the Maris Sorrenti, the Peter Lindbergh, Craig McDeen, Glenn Lutchford, you know, and so I would see this work come into the art department, and I'd be like, oh, my God, I want to do that. I want to do that. I want to do that. And so I was confused early on. My style was jumping all over the place. And it wasn't until I officially left Bizarre that I realized, boy, you better get a style and stick with it. [00:38:36] Speaker B: You know, talk about that all the time. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so important. And. But I will say that what I did learn is these guys had styles that they stuck with but grew with. And that fine line of sticking to your style and growing is a tricky one that not everyone can achieve. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:59] Speaker A: But can I also show you a little something special? [00:39:02] Speaker B: Please do. And you're gonna show it to this camera. [00:39:04] Speaker A: I'm gonna show it to this camera. So this was an outtake of the Linda Evangelista cover that you're wearing. And, you know, when you do cover shoots, you try different things. And so this one was possibly in the running for a second. [00:39:19] Speaker B: I mean, here's the thing about this image. It really is very close to an allure cover that Linda did many years later. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Oh, interesting Gor. [00:39:29] Speaker B: I mean, how can you take a bad photo? First of all, Linda in all of her lindeness, just carrying not only a cover, but an era, like, enter the era of elegance. I mean, what a mantle to have. I'm so happy you have that, and I hope you display it. Proudly. Cause it's special to me. [00:39:49] Speaker A: It was in my. [00:39:49] Speaker B: It. [00:39:49] Speaker A: It was in my attic. And yes, I stole it. [00:39:52] Speaker B: Good. [00:39:53] Speaker A: But can I just point out. Yes, this is no retouching. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Ah. [00:39:57] Speaker A: This is no retouching. [00:39:58] Speaker B: Dead. [00:39:59] Speaker A: This is Laura Mercier makeup. This is Garen hair. This is Donna Karen. But this is no return, because back then there was no digital. You know, hand retouching was done by hand. And if you did take. If you did steal a print, Right. That was actually retouched and ran in the magazine today. That's all like, blemish. That's all falling off, Right? So, yeah, no itching. [00:40:21] Speaker B: That's such a great point. Thank you for that. Okay, so we're not content enough to just be a photographer and a podcast host. You go and write a fucking book. [00:40:33] Speaker A: I did. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Which when I heard, I was like, wait, Dennis Kalanka. [00:40:38] Speaker A: I know. I think you texted me and you. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Were like, this You. What is this you. You wrote a book? Okay, but I have to just read what this is about. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:48] Speaker B: Set in New York's bustling Metropol, two Face brings together a diverse cast of characters, all united by a common background of devastating traumas. There's your psycho background. When influential film director Alistair Harris decides it's time for him to make a film that will embody his legacy, he selects a handful of promising young writers to tell their stories through the unique and challenging process of casting actors and writing the story as the a film. When former child actress Myra Moss learns of this film project, she'll do anything to become its star. The only thing that stands in her way is her co joined twin Martha, who's not so eager to be back in the spotlight. Bitch, you wrote a book about Siamese twins in like, I just two faced. Please get this. It is so fun. Talk to me about why you wrote this and where this lives in your brain. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Okay. You know, it's so funny. This is all connected. So in 2008, yes, during the recession, I had slowed down in photography and I decided to write a book. And it was called working title was called Peeing on Prada. And it was a memoir of my time at Bazaar. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Girl, you like, you could have had the devil worse Prada before. [00:42:11] Speaker A: And it. Well, Devil's Prayer product came out in 2006. But there was a lot of interest in my book because of Devil Wears Prada. [00:42:21] Speaker B: So I ended up peeing on Prada. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Peeing on Prada. [00:42:23] Speaker B: What a great title. [00:42:25] Speaker A: That was the. And so I had gotten an agent very quickly. William Clark. Amazing Man. And I didn't know anything about that world at all. And I didn't realize how hard it was for most people to get an agent, especially an unknown writer. And. And it just went. And he, while he was shopping it, and he helped me fix it up and tidy it up. They were right on sent all of that. And while he was shopping it, he was like, you know, you should start writing your second book because this all, like, goes really quickly. And so I was like, all right, I want to write a fiction book. I just want to do something completely outside of the spectrum. And I just was toying with the idea of good and evil. And I thought, what if it's in one person but like, you know, one being, you know? And so that's how I came up with that. And while he was shopping, peeing on Prada, I was writing this book. And then the peeing on Prada, what happened is. And it was a memoir. The publishers wanted less gay and more bizarre. And. And when I say that, you know, this was 2008, we weren't as open to gay stories or the world we are now. And I was pissed. And I thought, I don't want to make it less gay. This is who I am. This is what I was doing at that time. And also I started working again in photography because the recession was ending. I was like, I don't have time for this shit. And so I basically shelved both of the books. And so then when we went through Covid, I was at home and I was like, all right, well, I gotta work on something. And so I pulled out two faced and I thought, why don't I just polish this off and see if there's any legs here? And. [00:43:57] Speaker B: Four legs. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Yeah, there's four. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Three. [00:44:00] Speaker A: There's three, yes. And. And so, yeah, so that's what I did during COVID And then, you know, and then when we came out of COVID while that was being shot, I started doing the podcast. [00:44:12] Speaker B: So. Brilliant. Well, the timing for everything you do and touch, like I said, is just great and brilliant. And Dennis, honestly, I could talk to you for three more hours about all of this. And I'm so fascinated by that time and I'm so thrilled that you were a part of it. And really I just. Listen, I'm going to be looking out for the book about Blow up and the podcast. I'm going to be looking for the film that you're going to direct. We're gonna talk to Ryan Murphy about a feud. We're doing all the things together. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Let's do it all. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Danis Galanta, thank you so much for being here. [00:44:45] Speaker A: Oh, James, thank you for having me. And I'm so proud of you. I'm obsessed. You're my new favorite podcast, so to be part of it is just phenomenal. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Fashion kisses. Thank. [00:45:03] Speaker A: You.