[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Hello, and welcome back to Label Queen. I am your host, James Aguiar, and this is the podcast where we delve a little bit deeper into what the labels are we put on ourselves, what the labels are that others put on us. And it's really about an exploration of who we are, who we think we are, who we want to be, all of those things. That sounds really deep. At the end of the day, this is just a fun, fun, fun conversation with a great guest and some of my ridiculous insights as I see them now. We have done a few episodes, so if you have any comments, now's your time to email
[email protected] I am here for the comments and I really thank you for tuning in, listening and watching. And I will say, if you're watching, I do add a lot of imagery that helps support the podcast. So it can be ridiculous or fun, as is everything I do. So I'd like to start today with talking about a word that I'm kind of fond of. And I think it's because I am this delusional. I think I am delusional. I still think I'm the youngest person in the room. I still think I'm the sexiest, the hottest, the most fit, the most successful, all of those things. Delusion. Although I do think delusion helps us get up in the morning, I help. I think it helps us get down the stairs, get through the door, face the day. Diana Vreeland once said, style gets you through the door, style gets you up. Style gets you down the stairs. However, I think it's delusion, and I don't think it's a bad thing. And I promise there is a direct correlation to why I'm talking about this. Because in a sense, my guest today wrote a fascinating book about a person, a very successful person in the fashion industry, who I don't think was delusional. However, he was somebody who said, nope, I'm doing this my way. I'm not going to be part of the system. Although he became part of the system, I'm going to do this in a way that sets myself free from any kind of box that you think you can put me in. And I admire people like that so much. It's why this show is called Label Queen, because we can do so many things and. And we don't have to be the thing that people say you are or that you say you are. Oh, I'm just this, I'm just this, I'm just that, or you're just this. You're just that, nope, we've got a lot of things we can do and I am living proof of that. So that's my word delusion. And you know what? Embrace it as I do. I also like to talk about the highs and the lows and the things that are kind of just piquing my interest now. A couple of weeks ago I mentioned of course, and just like that as a low. And the news has come out that it is indeed ending. And interestingly enough, Sarah Jessica Parker and the executive producers knew that it was ending. However, they kind of chose to keep that from us. And as is with anything, of course, you know, I wanted it to end, I talked about it and now I'm sad. Boo hoo, it is ending. It was really fun to watch in that idea of how weird, how much weirder can it get, how much stranger can it get, how bad can this writing get? So in that sense, yes, I am going to miss it, but it is time and we're going to say goodbye. So. But I do think it'll come back and I mentioned it should be an animated series, but I do think it'll come back when. When the girls are in their 70s now, which could be really interesting. You know, we're gonna get on to. To Golden Girls era soon. Anyway. My other low of the week, I just wrote dangling divas.
Giggling Divas to me means this recent thing where these stadium concerts, which are monumental and gargantuan and have ticket prices of course attached to that. And there's this thing where Katy per. Katy Perry flies around on this horse and that sort of broke down midair and she had to get off of it. And Beyonce, do not come for me, beehive. She's traveling around in this car that floats out over the audience that broke down and she had to kind of get out of it. My thing with this is, I get it, these are huge ticket prices and you want a show, you want a spectacle. But it just scares me that this is so dangerous that a, you know, huge car floating above your head, however high, 30, 50ft high, is going to come crashing down on you with Beyonce in her assless chaps and extensions. I mean, I fear for your lives, so be careful out there, kids. If you're. You're checking out these concerts. I think Beyonce's has ended, but I am certain there'll be more dangerous things coming our way with these dangling divas. So that is my low. My high is a documentary, of course. I don't know, I've just been watching A lot of documentaries. This one is called Catching Fire and it is the story of Anita Pallenberg. Those of you who don't know, Anita Pallenberg was famously a museum for the Rolling Stones. She also slept with all of them and was really sort of an inspirational character of the time, the 60s and the 70s. And this documentary was based on an unpublished autobiography called Black Magic that her children found after she died in 2017. It's also narrated or acted out by Scarlett Johansson. It's a really fascinating, beautiful documentary and I'm particularly drawn to that era. Pre, pre publicist, pre stylus, pre social media, pre Internet, pre all of the things. Because there was a freedom there now was I am I believing that it was the most healthy time? Probably not. But it was a lot of fun and it was gorgeous. And people seem to live a little bit freer not having to be connected or called upon for every move that they make. And Anita Pallenberg was beautiful. She was a model, she was an actress. I think she appeared in Barbarella and some other films. Just a cool chick and she's wrongly labeled groupie. She was an inspiration. She was a muse and she was fabulous and fantastic. So I'm hoping you all watch it Catching Fire, the story of Anita Pallenberg. Now onto my favorite part of the pod. This is when I get to introduce my guest and I'm really excited. Before I say who it is, I'm going to introduce her to you. And she's somebody who is just fascinating, known for many years and I'm so thrilled she's joining us. We have a Pulitzer Prize. See how I put those glasses on? For those of you who are watching, we have on a Pulitzer Prize winning senior critic at large for the Washington Post. In this role, she covers a wide range of topics including politics, race and the arts. Additionally, she is also celebrated for her insightful fashion criticism. That is true. She has an uncanny ability to transform fashion commentary into cultural criticism. Again, also true, her books include Michelle Her First Year as First lady about Michelle Obama. She has the Battle of Versailles, the Night American Fashion Stumbled Into Spotlight and Made History and the newly released Make It Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. My guest is the Pulitzer Prize winning author, Robin.
Stay tuned.
Robin Givhan, I am so happy you're here.
You've heard of method dressing? I'm doing method interviewing. We're talking about Virgil Abloh and your book Make It Ours. I'm so happy you're here. It's great to see you.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Thank you. So much for having me. I'm really excited to talk.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: You have a new book out. And before we talk about Virgil Abloh and the book, I wanted to ask you as a writer, because I'm not one, when do you get the idea A. B, when do you think that idea could actually make a book?
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Wow. Well, honestly, in this case, they sort of happened simultaneously. Right after Virgil passed away in 2021, there was, as you know, this incredible outpouring of shock, sorrow, surprise. I mean, just sort of this feeling that someone had been cut off mid sentence. And I was honestly surprised by the intensity of the reaction. I mean, certainly I was shocked, but I was surprised by how intimately people seemed to feel his passing. And that was startling. And that, honestly, was also when it seemed like, okay, wait a minute, maybe the story of Virgil's fashion professional life and sort of how fashion was sort of moving alongside him, maybe that's a book.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: I love that idea because I do think part of this is kind of being the first to the table, in a sense. And in a way, you are with this incredible book. It really is a triumph. But how about the Michelle Obama book or the Battle of Versailles, which I talked about before you came on? When did those ideas hit you? And you were like, you know what? There's a book here. Because, by the way, you have to take time off from your daily life. You have to go into this secluded world. It's a bit lonely.
So what makes you say, you know what? I want to spend time with this and kind of sacrifice?
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Well, first of all, thank you for the kind words about make it ours, you know, with the other ones. It's funny, I am really terrible at being able to judge whether or not something is a book. I have to give major props to my book agent, who I actually met with the Battle of Versailles, because there had been. I knew very little about that story. I'd heard, like, bits and pieces of it mentioned by designers like Oscar de la Renta and Donna Karan. You know, would I be interviewing them for something completely different?
So I was sort of there in the back of my mind. And then the Met hosted this reception celebrating the models, the black models who had been there. And that was really the first time that I heard any of the participants speak about it in depth. And there were some stories about the reception. I did not write one of them. And my book agent reached out to me practically cold and said, I'm going to be in. In Washington, and, you know, do you want to have a coffee? I'd Love to talk to you about something and, you know, always take the coffee. Right. And he sat down and he talked about the event and said it sounded like it could make an interesting book because it really had this sort of beginning, middle and end. Right. It was a ready made narrative.
And I said, you know, it sounds interesting. I don't really want to write about a fashion show per se, but I am kind of interested in like the cultural changes that happened and what was sort of going on during that time. And he was like, bingo. Like, that's, that's the way that this story should be told. So someone also once said to me that before you take on any book project, just know that it's a subject, it's a person that you want to spend two years of your life with.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Thank you. And I think that is my point. I don't think people realize. I mean, I keep saying sacrifice, but it really is. And you have to like the subject enough to spend the time with it. Would you say there's a common thread that links your books together from make it Ours to Michelle Obama to the Battle of Versailles? Is there a link? Would you say?
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I would say that it's. I'm less interested in sort of what the person did and more intrigued by how they were able to do it and why they were able to do it. I tend to be more interested in sort of how did sort of the world around them change so that they were able to do something, you know, with Virgil in 2018 or, you know, 2013 when he started off white, or with Versailles in 1973, that could not have been done five years earlier and would not have resonated in the same way if it had been done 10 years later. This is such an interesting. True of Michelle Obama in that was such a particular moment in time. And it was.
And she was someone who was really speaking to not just a moment within the culture, but also sort of particular moment within fashion, a particular moment globally.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Right. I mean, what I love about your books is really it goes hand in hand with your writing and your, your criticism and your commentary. It's. You're able to blend not what we're seeing exactly in front of our face, but what it means to the culture in general and kind of at large. And it makes perfect sense that you would be led to Virgil. I wanted to tell you an anecdote before you talked about the book and the why. So I do a lot of work with Louis Vuitton. I meet their clients and spend a lot of time with them. And they're fascinating, as you know, and it's a different world. But the truth is, a lot of those clients, those very important clients, or Vic's as they're called, they might not necessarily know who the designer is behind the label, the label Queen. And specifically for womenswear, I will say for Louis Vuitton and Virgil Abloh in particular, Every single client knew who this person was, who this man was, his importance and what it represented. So talk to me a little bit about the why Virgil Abloh, you know, sort of struck this chord in the time he did and obviously make it. Ours is born out of, I would think, that spark.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: So, James, it is so funny that you should say that because I had this very good friend who loves fashion and I remember during the height of the Tom Ford Domenico di Soleil, are they staying? Are they going, what's happening with Gucci? After they had sort of transformed it. And when they, when they left, I remember having a conversation with this friend and talking about how I was writing this story about their departure and how it was such a big deal and blah, blah, blah. He had no idea who was.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: I mean, that is my point exactly. And this, by the way, I get it for the fashion world at large, but these are really cultural shifts that, that basically speak to business. I mean, this is billions of dollars here on the table. So it is exactly that. So what, what do you think it is about Virgil that made him kind of break through all of that?
[00:15:49] Speaker A: You know, I think it was, it was a combination of things. You know, one is the fact that menswear had become so important and was having such a huge impact on fashion writ large. That one, there was just sort of a bigger spotlight on menswear in general. And then there was a bigger spotlight on black men in fashion because of the impact of athletes and because of sneaker culture and because of hip hop and. And all these things have been a long time in coming.
But they were all sort of kind of at like peak activity at that point. And then Virgil had a really smart way of using social media. Most designers tended to use it as kind of an amplifying stage. They would stand there and it was kind of a one way conversation. And with Virgil, it was a much more intimate conversation.
And as a result, you know, people who looked up to him and sort of thought he was something of a role model, they felt like they were actually having conversations with him. Like they felt like they knew him because they would DM him and he would respond and Was, you know, that's a really huge thing when you're talking about an industry that seems so impenetrable, and you're talking about people who seem like they're larger than life to not only feel like you can poke a hole through that wall, but that someone on the inside is going to talk back to you and maybe even, like, extend a hand. I mean, that was huge. And he also spent a lot of time sort of playing in the arena of transparency and authenticity. And I say playing not because I want to say that he wasn't, you know, being sincere about it, but, you know, there's always a level of sort of performance, even in the authenticity.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm interested in what you said earlier about the could it happen five years before or 10 years later? And I think we cannot tell this story without mentioning Kanye West. And I'm interested, because would the same thing have happened if Kanye west is sort of, you know, exposed for where he stands today politically and in pop culture in general? Talk us through the Kanye west experience with Virgil, and did he distance himself from Kanye later as he got into this luxury space?
[00:18:24] Speaker A: You know, the whole connection to Kanye, or as I keep referring to him, the artist formerly known as Kanye, was huge. And there is. It was. For me, it was helpful that the period of time when Kanye was really having a huge impact on Virgil's thinking and on Virgil's rise preceded the artist now known as Ye or Ye or. I don't know what he shortened it to at this point. But during that period, you know, he was seen as this incredibly inventive, ambitious, creative dynamic figure. And that was huge. To be able to kind of stir up that kind of ambition within a community of people and bring them along your sort of dream journey.
And I think as things moved on and Virgil was putting so much of his time into traveling with Kanye and, you know, corralling people for Kanye, he did start to ask himself, like, what is. Is what am I leaving, making for myself? What am I building truly for myself? And that certainly set him on this path. And when he got the job at Vuitton, I mean, it was. It was tricky. You know, he talked about how he felt. In many ways, it was a job that not necessarily belonged to Kanye, but it was a job that one expected that if anyone in that circle would get, it would be Kanye. And he certainly wanted it.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: And that can create challenges.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's. It's interesting because I was covering the show for Full Frontal Fashion in those days, and Kanye West Was a constant presence, especially in Paris. And he was almost. He was very accessible. He was very verbose. He loved to talk about fashion. And I actually had high hopes. Let's fast forward a little bit because then we have the off white era. And I remember going to one of Virgil's off white shows, and it really was compared to the most insane rock concert level of anarchy and danger and craziness just to get in. I mean, that was really the height of think when you tell me if I'm wrong, if the LV or LVMH executives were like, there's something happening here that we have to explore a little bit more.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: I think we were at the same show.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: We were at the same show. Did you get in?
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I mean, that was the show when I got a little knocked around. But, yes, I did manage to get in. That was duck. That was a show when.
Yeah, like, it struck me as well that. Wait a minute, like, this really is like a crazy scene. And, you know, it's something out of, like, fashion in, like, the early 2000s, late 90s, when we really saw that. That kind of circus a lot. And it was a reminder, one that Virgil had in some ways kind of churned up the craziness because he basically posted on his social media about the show and where it was and threw out an invitation to, you know, fans to show up. And it was also when he had just done a big collaboration with Nike, he had done the 10. And that. That's another sort of. Sort of point of think as you connect the dots. That's another dot in Virgil's success.
Because I also don't think that he would have been able to get the job had he not done the collaboration with Nike, which was funny, successful.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: On my notes, I literally just have the notes, sneakers, because, I mean, it's just so important.
I want to read a quote that he had from your book about off white. And it's sort of. To me. Well, we'll talk about it. The world puts me in a box, yet I don't see any box. That's my freedom. That to me, represents everything that. Who he was prior and what he brought into this luxury space. What do you think of that quote?
[00:22:46] Speaker A: I think it was a driving force for him, but I also think that it was one of the reasons why his fans adored him so much because I think a lot of them also felt like they were being placed in boxes because they didn't either have the traditional credentials that fashion expected or they didn't look the part or they didn't have the connections that one, you know, sort of felt like were necessary in order to sort of get through the door.
And I think for a lot of them there was also that element of feeling a little bit sort of alone in their own community in that. In the same way that Virgil would talk about, talked about at one point being a black teenager with white sand sensibilities.
And by that he meant he was this kid who. This black kid who, yeah, he loved hip hop and he loved Michael Jordan, but he also loved skateboarding and he loved Nirvana and you know, he loved the New Order and Europop. And for a lot of people when they're growing up, those, those things just aren't allowed to overlap. So I think the idea of not being put into a box appealed to people on a lot of different levels.
And I think it also appealed to a brand like Vuitton that, you know, is so much more about being kind of part of the culture as opposed to being identified by a particular garment or particular silhouette or particular groundbreaking collection.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Right. Well, it's funny because you mentioned the Tom Ford Domenico de Soleil era and I think you would agree with me if we say fashion as sort of forward thinking as it is. It's really not filled with original ideas. So Tom Ford, Domenico de Soleil, that collaboration worked. And then you would see these luxury houses saying, well, let's get a Caucasian, sexy white, you know, man in this creative director role that all shifted, you know, whatever. 10, 15 years later with this appointment. He did have a contemporary though, in Matthew Williams at Givenchy who sort of tried to mirror the same thing. This kind of like from the street, hip hop, street culture, street wear and putting it in a luxury house to lesser effects, I would argue. What do you think was the difference between Matthew and Virgil and why the phenomenon sort of circled around LV men's and didn't really take up at Givenchy question.
[00:25:33] Speaker A: You know, fashion is such a weird bird. I mean, sometimes it's just like this particular voodoo magic that happens. I mean, if I were guessing, I would say that some of it really had to do with the different brands that they were actually working for. You know, I'll come back to the idea that, you know, Vuitton was.
I mean, there's this part in the book where I sort of talk about how at one point Vuitton was showing its collection in, you know, sort of this at the Andre Citouin center, the women's collection. And then they moved it out to the, the foundation where it was Sort of adjacent to the art. And then they moved it into the Louvre where it was basically wandering amidst the art.
In so many ways. It wants to sort of situate itself as part of that universe almost more so than kind of the fashion universe. And so I think it was kind of okay that and it made sense that Virgil was this guy who was more of a ringmaster and more of a remixer. It sort of made sense with the brand's sense of itself. But I think with Givenchy, I mean, that was a brand that and is a brand that is sort of deeply rooted in the clothing.
So in some ways I think Matthew's work was judged more harshly than Virgil's was that there was an expectation that his work do something that Virgil's work was not a standard, that Virgil's work was not held to.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: That's a really interesting point and thank you because I think it bears mentioning. All right, let's fast forward to the sort of phenomenal buildup to the first show. And I am wearing, as you can see.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: I am so impressed.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: So here's the thing with this. When I first saw the show, I did think it was extraordinary. You write in the book that Michael Burke said there might have been some hiccups and it wasn't probably a perfect show, but it was a perfect first show for him. I do think it was perfect. And this piece, this sort of wizard of Oz piece with the four main characters blacked out to me signified everything.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: It is the piece of the show.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: So I am so happy to have it because intuitively I a kind of knew that. And then of course, it's taken on such significance later. It is wrapped in a box in acid free tissue. It is hidden away. It really is kept like a museum for me. So thank you. And I want to point out a couple of other things. This was also an invitation from one of Virgil's men's shows. This was number eight. This. I can't remember what collection this was, but this was basically a paint can. But it's a handbag that all of the men walked with. And I was like, I don't get that reference. And one day I was watching the opening of Saturday Night Fever with John Travolta and that opening scene is him and all of his sexiness in that louche 70s way walking down the street with a paint can. And I don't know if that's a direct correlation, but I couldn't understand why a paint can. Here's another one, which was basically an air sickness bag. From his number six show. So talk to me about the shows, their success and then what he was sort of held up to because of the success.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, can I just. I just. I just want to, like, marvel at the sweater, because I love that. That honestly is probably, like, my favorite piece of, like, all of them.
And what. What I love about it is it does capture that moment of sort of reaching, you know, the Emerald City. And it also captures the idea that he felt like he had not really done it by himself, that he had done it as part of a group, as part of a community that was reflected in the students who were invited to that show. And I also just think that it's a beautiful sweater.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: It is beautiful.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: And it's one of those pieces that is so emblematic of in some ways. I also think about it because it was in the advertisement with the little. With the toddler.
And that ad also really spoke to all the things that I think captured people's imagination about Virgil at Vuitton. It was about a new beginning and possibilities and all that stuff.
The next show sort of focused on Michael Jackson was, to me, a really curious choice. And it was also, I thought, a reflection of Virgil's ability to see beyond the hurdles. But sometimes in seeing beyond the hurdles, not seeing the problems. You know, when he described that show, he said he was focused on Michael Jackson as a fashion icon.
And I kind of thought to myself, of all the things that Michael Jackson is, I don't know that I would describe him as a fashion icon.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Well, would you. Would you say that now, though, in sort of looking back? And when you think of fashion icons, what are they? That doesn't mean they have to have good taste. Right. They have to cut a singular look or image. And Michael Jackson did that one. Glove studded leather jackets, the beaded jacket, short pants with the penny loafers, the ripped t Shir.
So I would challenge that he kind of is. Do you still not see him in that way?
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Well, I think it's. I sort of define. I think about fashion icons a little bit differently, and I do think that he had a singular look in the same way. Okay, I'm gonna step onto really, like, a third rail here, But I'm gonna say that I think Beyonce has a singular look.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep. Careful, the beehives.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Hey, I'm in the hive. I was there. I met, like, scads of, you know, narrow on those tickets. I traveled for Cowboy Carter, But I don't think that she's a fashion icon. And in the same Way I think of her in many ways the same as with Michael. With Michael Jackson, like, the look is very distinctive to him and there are these moments, these gestures that completely embody him. But no one's walking around with, you know, a single beaded glove unless they're trying. They're dressed up like Michael Jackson.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: That is such a great point. Love it. You're so right. I'm fast forwarding a bit because I want to talk about this sort of. Towards the end of the book you write. Abloh had one glorious year of Runway shows in Paris before the real struggles began. He would soon be forced to address race more directly and than he ever had in his professional life. His standing in the fashion industry would be magnified by the culture's evolving relationship with black consumers and black identity. He would be transformed into an icon and he'd have to address the impossible demands the public makes of them. Talk to me about that sort of struggle. You. You reach the heights of success and then you're boxed in, which is the very thing he spent his whole career trying to not be.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, for him, it really sort of came. Came up with the Black Lives Matter protests during, After George Floyd was murdered.
And, you know, he was in so many ways, publicly and professionally a centrist in that, you know, he said, you know, I'm not a rebel, I'm not a flamethrower. He wanted to make corporate culture cool. He wasn't interested in turning over tables. And that was a period when, you know, there was not a lot of room for nuance. People were not looking for centrists in those times. And he sort of stepped into a social media post where he sort of reprimanded protesters for damaging a store. You know, the response from people was that they saw him as putting things above people and he had to really recalibrate and address those things quite directly and, you know, and put out some statements where that were really, I thought, quite vulnerable and heartfelt, where he talked about his experience being a dark skinned black man living and working in Chicago and what that, what that was like and the kind of concerns for his own safety that that brought up. And I also thought that his work became a bit more nuanced during that period and. And as sort of sweetly joyful as that first collection had been, I thought some of the later work was more just more sort of like deeply more thoughtful, more nuanced emotions.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: I totally, totally agree with you. Then the news came that he passed away.
And I realize I am jumping a bit, but that news was tantamount to the news of Gianni Versace being murdered in Miami or Alexander McQueen taking his own life. It resonated with the shock of all of those things that I just mentioned. I don't know. Did LV know that he was ill? Do you know anything about that in the. In the backstory?
[00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he had informed. I mean, like, Michael Burke was his. His boss certainly knew.
And so LV was aware of the diagnosis, but it seemed that even with that, it was still quite shocking. It was still quite surprising.
And, you know, Michael Burke had spent time with him or had spoken with him not long before he passed away. And, you know, when comparing it to Versace and McQueen, I think, you know, it's fair, the same kind of shock. But, you know, the difference I feel is that both of them had had so much more time to really give really deep, rich legacy of design. And, you know, there are these just incredible moments from their collections that you could point to and just, you know, sort of be awestruck by how potent it had been. And with Virgil, he was sort of just starting to be able to, I think, find his way as a designer. I mean, this was someone who, for so long didn't describe himself as a designer, you know, sort of described himself as a creator and a maker and, you know, what have you. And I do think that he was starting to sort of find his way and find his voice. And I also think that it was those very pressure points coming from the outside culture, the emphasis, the interest in diversity, the conversations about diversity, something that he was well aware of and wanted to see more of, but was not someone who's out there, you know, carrying signs and protesting and working in that way.
I feel like it would have been so intriguing to see how those pressure points might have shaped him, changed him, or how he would have maybe responded in, you know, in contrast to those expectations.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: Well, his activism was certainly his work and imbued in his work. In the epilogue, the last paragraph is Abloh succeeded. His unlikely victory made it seem as though anything was possible, and indeed it was. Abloh took the baton from those who came before him, and he ran with it. He covered a mighty distance in a terribly short time. Pharrell Williams took up that baton. He raised it high, and with gratitude, he took his bow. So what is the legacy with Pharrell, and how do you see that direct link, if there is one?
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Well, there is a link. And, you know, I. I'll start by saying that through the whole process of this Book. My heart always ached a little bit for that kid who said, I'm going to go to design school, I'm going to apprentice, I'm going to do the internships, I'm going to learn the technique, and I'm going to build a business. Because Virgil talks so much about cheat codes and shortcuts, and I think there's a lot to applaud in what Virgil was talking about, because in any industry, there's lots of busy work that keeps people from succeeding. There's lots of, you know, artificial barriers that are put up so that some people can't get ahead, but at the same time, also feel like, you know, a shortcut. When you take a shortcut, sometimes you miss out on all of the training and the experience.
That gives you the stamina to sustain, and that gives you the tools to handle things when things get tough. And I also think about, you know, if you take a shortcut when you're running a marathon, did you really run the marathon?
[00:39:15] Speaker B: I would be the one that was like, okay, pick me up here and then drop me off over there, and I'll cross the finish line. Sorry.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: See? And I ran marathon.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Of course you did.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: And so in some ways, I feel a little bit like, you know, Pharrell benefited from the shortcut.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: And, you know, there are good things about that, and I think there are negative, negative things about that.
In. For me, I wish that the biggest lesson that Vuitton had taken from the experience with Virgil was that you need to. If you broaden your aperture and look at unlikely people who have skills that are different but may be just as valuable, you can be greatly rewarded. And with Pharrell, I felt a little bit like the aperture really didn't widen.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great point, and I think you're right. And it's kind of why I said that fashion is this sort of lemming business, because if something works, you know, you try to duplicate it, basically.
Robyn, it's such a great book. It is a really fascinating in depth journey and insight and so timely and so special. So thank you. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for coming on. Before I let you go, though, I do this thing where I ask a colleague or a friend who you do not know or you do know this person, but you don't know. I'm doing this to ask you a question. So I'm gonna ask the question, and you're gonna see if you know who it is, and then you can answer it. Here's the surprise question. Is There anything you miss about covering Paris Fashion Week? Leisurely drives on the or following the Oscars in real time over champagne at La Societe, perhaps. First of all, who do you think asked you that question?
[00:41:08] Speaker A: Was it one Booth Moore?
[00:41:10] Speaker B: It was the only Booth Moore who, of course, put Peripherique in. And, you know, it was like, oh, leave it to her to give me a word. I can't say. But she. She did ask the question. And I know she's a great friend and colleague of yours, but what do. Do you miss anything about covering Paris Fashion Week?
[00:41:27] Speaker A: I miss seeing my friend Boot Moore on a very regular basis. Yeah. I mean, I absolutely miss, you know, the friends that I made sitting there for hours watching. Watching the clock tick away before anything happens yet on the Runway after you've raced breathlessly from one side of town to the other.
But I will say the one thing that I miss is those moments when you are completely taken by surprise by some just magical thing on the Runway.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: I think it's a.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: It's the thing that keeps you traipsing from one crazy place to the next, because you just never know who's gonna be the one that dazzles.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. And I will. I'll button this up with. It was a question I asked Anna Wintour once, quickly, of course. And I said, anna, what did you think of the show? I think it was a McQueen show. And she simply said, that's why we come to Paris. And I think it's a great answer. It says exactly what you said. And, Robyn, thank you so much. Thank you for your years of insightful writing. And I know there's great things to come and relish in the book and have a great book tour and our next podcast, maybe we'll just talk about Fashion Week in general.
[00:42:48] Speaker A: That sounds good. Thank you. This was so much fun.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: Thank you, Robin.
