Label Queen with Jay Manuel

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to Label Queen. This is the first episode of season three, and I'm so happy to be back. We are not talking about Hallmark Christmas movies. However, I still want to maybe, I don't know, maybe, like, summer ones. We'll get into it somewhere. But I'm happy to be back. I've got a great season ahead. We've got some fantastic guests, some great conversations, and, of course, all of the pop culture that I've missed. And by the way, I've missed a lot of pop culture. So the funny thing about pop culture, it sort of just invades your life. And then in a week, two weeks, a month, definitely a year, you can't even remember it. And that's what I love. I mean, you just sort of get so kind of inundated with this thing labubu. And then you're like, did we actually care about that? Did we actually care about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And the answer is yes and no, because it occupies a lot of our brain space. So one of the things that I didn't get to talk about, and I'm not gonna get too, too far into it, because my take on it is probably what nobody wants to hear, but the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni mess. So I was thinking about it because it's been on, you know, of course, the news and the feeds and the TikToks and the Instagrams and the reels and the stories and whatever. Whatever as well it should be. It's a very, very juicy story. However, I was thinking about it, and I was on a plane, as often I am. And the movie. What is that movie called? It ends with us. The movie that all of this is about. The lawsuits, the scheming, the conspiracies, the control. The Ugly side of Hollywood is a movie that I don't even care about. So all of this drama, and it is drama, is surrounding a film that I don't think anybody even saw. I mean, I know they saw it. Of course they saw it, but it wasn't like this juggernaut of a film that was a blockbuster that we had to see. And we can, you know, dissect all of the things that went wrong from the very beginning of the press and how that was handled and what it revealed. But the point for me is, why are we getting so freaked out about a film that doesn't even hold an interest? And correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of people that saw it, but I didn't. And I'm somebody that lives in pop culture, loves pop culture, loves a hate watch, loves a surprise, loves being. You know what, this isn't my genre, but I'll go and being pleasantly surprised. And this movie just didn't do it. Every single time it came up on my whatever for you page, if it came up on my Netflix or wherever you can watch it, I was like, you know, I don't care about this. And I think part of that is because it got so much press, so much bad press, so much. It just looks so dark and ugly and weird and I didn't want to see it. So I haven't seen it. But on the flip side of that, a movie that I did enjoy that was just juicy and wrong and fun was the Housemaid with Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney, who, you know what? Love the girl. Great part. It was a fun, fun watch. I think Paul Feig directed it who has kind of found his niche with these female led films that are combative and interesting and ends up being something that you didn't realize. But it's filled with twists and turns and over acting and rot scenes and some would say bat shit crazy, but it's a lot of fun. So if you haven't seen that, please, please check that out. The Oscar nominees. Okay, so I did something I have really never done before. I watched every single best picture nominee. And some of those movies like I was talking about are things like just that do not interest me. They're not my genre. You know, I love a makeover, I love a ballroom scene, I love a time travel, whatever, whatever. And there were some really interesting films that I wanted to talk about, so I saw them all and we'll go through them very quickly. Begonia, Frankenstein, hamnet. Sentimental value, F1 train dreams and. And the Secret Agent. So very interesting for me because did I forget one battle after another? Yes, I did. One battle after another, which I thought was phenomenal. Fantastic. Paul Thomas Anderson in a movie that is part almost feels very rooted in reality and today and then almost fantasy of what it would be. And it reminded me of films from the 70s that were all about revenge. And there's a movie called Billy Jack that I, I remember. It's not a genre that I love. I don't love guns, I don't love war, I don't love all of that. But I really, really like this movie. Fantastic performances and it was just a lot of fun. Frankenstein. Beautiful to look at. A little boring, but fun. Hamnet, one of the most beautiful films I think ever Produced. Every scene just looks like a painting. And we hear that a lot. So it's a little cliche, but it's. It's really true. Especially towards the end when they get into the actual theater production. It is stunning and really boring. I'm sorry. I know that there's a lot of lovers of this movie and it is great, but it's just boring. And sometimes that's okay. You know, it's beautiful to look at. Great performances. Boring brings me to sentimental value. Not so beautiful to look at, but boring. And kind of what you would expect from that genre of just everything is really, really rot and takes place in the world of film and acting and performance and putting yourself out there and whatever. A little boring Train Dreams. A very, very beautiful small movie that is adjacent to Hamnet in that it is stunning to look at. It is all about nature and the geography and the landscape as kind of a plot and a character, and it just sort of the vast beauty of this country and nature plays a huge, huge part. And it's a very, very small film and it's. It's quite lovely. You know, see it if you want. F1. Definitely not my genre. Formula One racing, which I know is a thing and it should be. It's a great sport. And Jerry Bruckheimer, I think production. I'm not sure why this is in the best picture category, other than the fact that it is a huge production filmed in Dubai, in Miami and Las Vegas and wherever else, and it stars Brad Pitt. Maybe that's why it's in playing sort of the rebel cowboy character that he does so well. Listen, it's entertaining. Seeing. See it on a big screen. It's fine. It's not my thing, but it's in there. And the Secret Agent, which is a Brazilian film starring Wagner Mora, who may just take the Academy Award. So I'm bringing these up just because the Academy Awards are around the corner. And I think it's an interesting season in that. Oh, I forgot Sinners. Okay, Sinners. One of the best movies I think I have ever seen in my life. You know, wrongly called a vampire picture. It is that and so much more. And to me, this film is about music. It is about bringing cultures together through music. And that is the backbone of the film. And so much religion, voodoo, racism, classism. Just a really, really, really stunning film, famously written and directed by Ryan Coogler. Oh, and I forgot, Marty Supreme. There's a lot of movies, right? Marty Supreme, Timothee Chalamet, Josh Safdie, director. Good, entertaining. You know, it's fine. It's a little bit of an annoying character, but, you know, the gumption that is put into this is pretty phenomenal to look at. Very well directed and edited, great music, great score, great cinematography. And bringing 1950s New York to life was really quite beautiful and some really fantastic performances. Gwyneth Paltrow in particular, who kind of found the role that was right for her at the right time. So it's a fantastic season of movies. My prediction. So you've got the, you know, who will win, who should win thing. I think Sinner should win. And I'm hoping that it kind of sneaks in there. It's kind of been missing those bigger above the the line awards. My prediction is one battle after another will take it. Especially with all of the news and the controversies of. Of ICE and all of the issues surrounding the government at the moment. So both very timely movies and again, great performances. I feel like you should see them all. And yeah, it was fun. It was a fun thing to do to try and see them all. So do it. Okay, we are getting to my guest now. This is somebody I have known for a very, very long time. Weirdly, we have never worked together. However, we were sort of adjacent in doing what we do. And there's this term that Simon Doonan coined called telly nellies. And there was a thing kind of in the mid 2000s or early 2000s, mid 2000s, where there were a lot of gays on TV, you know, in fashion, design, decorating, style, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, there was a lot of us and we were all kind of doing our thing. That is my phone. Isn't that terrible? And no. So there was a lot of us and we were all kind of doing the same things. Lots of makeovers, lots of changes, and, you know, design. I hate my house. I'm going to redo your house in whatever five minutes. My guest today is started as a makeup artist and. And went on to be so renowned as being the creative director for America's Next Top Model. J. Manuel, who was on for many, many, many, many seasons, I think they called them cycles. Cycle them in and cycle them out. And of course, there's a documentary that has just come out about America's Next Top Model called Reality Check. He has a lot to say about his time on America's Next Top Model. Since then, he's done very, very interesting things, which makes him the perfect candidate for label queen. He's gone on to write books and do so, so much more. So, ladies and gentlemen, Sit back and relax while we spill the tea. J. Manuel and I are getting into it. Stay tuned. J. Manuel, welcome to Label Queen. How are you? [00:12:55] Speaker B: I'm great. I feel severely underdressed because you always look good. And I'm just chilling at home right now. I'm just in my undershirt. Oh, my God, I feel so underdressed for eight hours. For you, of all people. I should have put on an outfit. [00:13:08] Speaker A: Listen, you and I go way back, and I wanted to talk about a lot with you. And the reason why I started Label Queen was we are so much more than the things that we put out there or were known for or whatever. Whatever. And you are the perfect example of that. Your whole career has been built on pivoting, creating, proving. And we're gonna get into all of it. But first, I wanted to say you and I have gone way back, and weirdly, we've never worked together. [00:13:44] Speaker B: No, no. Yeah, we've not. But we've had so many conversations and we've seen each other. I mean, I. Oh, my gosh. I mean, literally goes way back. And then what's interesting is because you would do coverage at Fashion Week. I was doing coverage for E. At Fashion Week when I was an E. Correspondent for seven years. And so our paths had always crossed, but we'd never worked together. But you know what's interesting? I always used to think we would make a really good pairing. [00:14:10] Speaker A: You know what? It's so funny you say that, because I'm gonna just. I'm gonna say it. You had a career or have a career that I was always. And envious is not the right word for me. Yeah, yeah. For me, you represented that. We can all do this. Right? We can all be visible, we can look a certain way. And you and I. I think we've probably even been, you know, Mis. Confused. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Because we have a similar complexion. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:14:42] Speaker B: Similar in height, you know. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. [00:14:44] Speaker B: And once I got rid of my spiky hair, now we both kind of a parted hair, so. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. People confuse us, of course. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway. And I just. You know, you're somebody that I just am so proud of. And I was mentioning before you came on, there's a term that Simon Doonan coined. You may have heard this. He called us Telly Nellies. You know, this group of gay guys in the early 2000s, mid 2000s, that were on TVs all the time, talking about style, decorating, food, whatever, doing makeovers, and it was a good time. I mean, it really really was a good time. And when I saw that the documentary Reality Check on America's Next Top Model was coming out, that was not the reason I called you. The reason I called was really, we're in season three now. Season two was really about Hallmark movies. But you were top of my list because I had Nigel on. I wanted you on immediately. And it was really about your books. So we, your book. We are going to talk about post America's Next Top Model. But then this pesky documentary came out and honey, I was like, this is going to blow up. And it has. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Yes, it's definitely an interesting time. And to speak to a couple of things that you've said. You just said one of the things for me in the early stages of my career, career, the thing I had to push against, and I'm talking late 90s. Oh my God, the little kids watching it are like the 90s. Yeah, the late 90s into the early 2000s. You know, I fought against the norm at the time, which was people wanted you in one lane and you'd stay in that lane. And because I had a digital background and I was working in post production for major brands because for Pantene, Maybelline, Revlon, like huge brands, doing the post work and overseeing the images through the billboards, all but also being hired as a makeup artist and being hired as a creative director, people didn't know how to take me. And the biggest kind of reaction I would get is you're not allowed to be a multi hyphenate. Pick one thing and do one thing. And it was actually Tyra, definitely Tyra and Iman and David Bowie. The three of them said to me, do not sacrifice who you really are. And you are talented at all of these areas because go forward, cut to today, all Anna Wintour talks about is she's still holding on to Vogue in many respects is everyone today has to be a multi hyphenate. You have to do this, this, this, produce cheap. Da, da, da. That was at a time when, and I remember the first time I actually walked up into the doors of Vogue. I was hired to do the celebrity portraits for many, many years at Vogue. And I got on the elevator and Anna Wintour walked on. I wasn't meeting with her, I was meeting with another editor. But I remember riding that elevator and thinking, oh my God. And they. People did not like this idea of multi hyphenate. But anyway, so that's that. And we cut to today, this documentary reality check coming out. It was. And by the way, most People don't know. This all started in 2024, summer of 2024. I don't think I've even said that in any of my interviews. So you're getting the scoop of that. And basically, the. One of our executive producers contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested, and I listened to his passionate pitch, and I said, you know, I will definitely think about this because I hear the passion in your voice. But if you wanted to answer today, the answer is no. Because I had said no to every documentary from major studios, all the networks, the big ones, all wanted to do this, and I said no every time because I'm not interested in takedown culture. And I didn't want to be a part of something that is a takedown of the show or to villainize Tyra, and I'm not interested in that. But ultimately, we had a meeting in person, and he made me feel comfortable enough to sign on, and Netflix was on board. Soon, I think the big miss, I guess the mis. The thing that is misrepresented right now in the press is that everyone's saying Tyra produced on this. Well, if you read in the press release or the credits, she is not a producer on this docum documentary. And actually, when Netflix told us that Moore and Daniel were the directors, I'm the geek in the room. I was just like, really? Are you kidding? And everyone's looking at me like, do you know them? And I'm like, yeah. I was familiar with all of their pieces they'd done to date. I was waiting for their manhunt, Osama bin Laden to hit Netflix, which was a brilliant piece to something we thought we knew all the facts to, and they tell us a compelling story. So I felt safe with these storytellers in that they were going to do their research, to do their due diligence because they're known for their journalistic integrity. And that's why I joined on and just sat down and spoke my truth. So sorry for my ramble answer, but. [00:20:04] Speaker A: You know, I love it because you're bringing up so many points that I wanted to make. One is feeling safe. And as you know better than anybody, reality television, and I think this documentary portrays it beautifully, is a Rolling Stone that gets bigger and bigger, and especially when you have success, what has to happen to maintain that success and how stories can be and are manipulated. And once the camera goes on, it is very, very tricky. So you felt safe. And. And I'm gonna say something, because I know all of you. I know tyra. I know, Ms. J. I know Nigel. I know you. You come off in that documentary so beautifully, so prepared to and not rehearsed. That's not the right. So ready to talk in a way that is everything that you just said, and you say so much, and you say it beautifully. And I just want you to know that everything that you say in that documentary makes perfect sense. You can see your love for what you were doing. You can see the passion, and you can also see the pain of when it starts to slip away and you don't have the control and it gets bigger and families gets, you know, fractured a little bit. Talk to me a little bit about. And I've asked Nigel this as well. And when was it for you that you knew these shoots are getting a little bit too far? We're moving too far away from what the original goal of this was. Was there one particular or did it just sort of grow for you? [00:22:00] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. It was a process. But there was definitely a turning point, which I think the documentary covers well. And before I even dive into that, I want to say thank you for your view of how we presented ourselves in the documentary. I love that you said prepared at first because I had no prepared answers. But I sat down and before they were getting final things together and before I could even start rolling in the first interview, in my mind, I was running through just my mantra, which is, I'm not here to defend anything. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. I'm here to share. And before we started with the questions, I just said to Moore and Daniel, who were obviously in front of me, and I said, look, I'm here to answer all your questions, and nothing is off the table. Anything that you would like to ask me that might be personal or how I was feeling, I'm here to answer you now. The documentary, I think, is beautifully put together. It's across three hours, three episodes. You know, I did about 12 and a half hours of interview, so I did not know what was even in this. So I'll start with that. But now to answer about the photo shoot in the doc, we zero in on the race swapping shoot, which was in cycle four. That was absolutely the definitive turning point for me pre that shoot. And we look at cycle one and two, and a lot of people talk about those cycle one, two, and three, and they love the creative. They love the photo shoots. And again, in many ways, I was given creative control and autonomy with certain things to really create. And what I would do initially before the cycle is sit down with Tyra. I mean, very casually, like she was at my house, we were lounging about, or I was at her house. And as she even says in the doc at one point, you know, friends lying in bed and dreaming up photo shoots. Lovely nostalgic line for her to say. Those were the first few seasons only. And really what we did is we looked at shoots she had done and I said, okay, this shoot that you did that had this piece out there, what was it like? What did you go through? Okay, let's do a shoot like that. And that made sense. You know, we were trying to prepare these girls and who's. I mean, patterning Tyra's footsteps seemed only logical. She was a bonafide huge top model at the time. So it made sense in the beginning and it made sense to me. And I love that production. Season one, like any season one was messy, but going into season two, we defined things and I was allowed to bring my own team on. So I actually produced the photo shoots independently. Production didn't produce those shoots. So when we look at that cycle too, especially I had my own team and production covered my shoots. So things like the Verona photo shoot, which they cover in the documentary with Shandy, and we're in that coliseum like, environment, like, I had to push for extra money to leave Milan to go there, but everyone trusted me. And then those, those images came out, as I think they say in the documentary. And the judges said, it looks like Italian Vogue. That's what I'm about. I was about creating provocative imagery that looks like you'd see it in a fashion magazine. And I thought that's what my job was. Cut to Cycle four, the race lopping shoot, which has followed me my entire life. And immediately in that meeting. So now instead of it being Tyra and I, it was a group meeting with Ken Mock and our co executive producer, Anthony Dominici, who I love, and line producers. And it was this meeting and they say, we're going to do this, which. And Tyra has admitted to today that this was her idea. And I said, now I'm thinking. And you know Tyra and I knew her intimately and we were supposedly besties, but even in that meeting, I knew I don't go against her in front of people she's working with. So I didn't say anything to her in that meeting, but I immediately pulled Anthony Dominici aside and said, there's no way I can do this shoot, you know, And I explained why. I said, look, everyone thinks I'm Spanish and I'm not because of my last name, but my parents are from South Africa. I am biracial, but my parents live through apartheid. My mother carried a pass card. You know, I just, like, I cannot stand here and switch races and ultimately put white women in blackface. There's just no way I could do this. So can we just come up with a narrative excuse as to why I'm not on set that day? We can easily come up with something and blah, blah, blah. So he took it to Ken and Tyra, and then they wanted to have a meeting with me. And Tyra very passionately said, do not worry, I will take care of this. You know, the press, they go by what I say and all that kind of stuff. And she goes, I'll make it very clear in the judging that this was my creative. And I'm thinking, jugdig, why don't you pop in this photo shoot? Because season one, she would do that, but now season two, she was trying to just leave it where I'm on set. But I was thinking, if there was ever a shoot she could show up on as this, she did not. I did it myself. We see the introduction in the documentary, But I was there because ultimately Tyra and Ken said I had to go. I had to deliver this creative. And Tyra would make it clear in the judging, this was her idea and her idea around empowering women of color. That was her logic. It doesn't even make logical sense then forget looking at it through today's lens. It made no sense then. It makes no sense today. But that's what she said. Now the press, even articles that are swirling around right now, around this documentary, talk about this moment, about this creative I delivered. And they conveniently forget the clip that shows Tyra and the judging saying, this is my creative and why I'm doing it. So it has been something that has followed me. People, all the kids writing on posts and my la la. It's really annoying and frustrating, but ultimately, I don't defend it anymore. They all say, I could have walked away. Well, sure, I had a TV contract. You try that. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You bring up something that we've been hearing a lot. We hear it in the documentary and I've been hearing a lot. Sort of TikTok culture through the lens of today. You know, the aperture of today. Looking back, hindsight, we see it on home design shows, you know, in the whatever, 90s, 2000s, they came in and fucked up my house. And, you know, and it begs the question, are we smarter today? This sort of reality Check. We've done it with the Biggest Loser. I think as long as there's reality television, as long as there's producers, there's stories to tell, we are going to be talking in 20 more years about something that's produced today, whether it's Love island or. Can you believe they put us through that? One thing I wanted to bring up, one thing I wanted to bring up was being on set. And you were doing it for a television show. You did it behind the scenes. It's your career. I also produced shoots. Created shoots. Was on set. And I remember once being in Hawaii, and there was, you know, we were on a cliff and the water below. The photographer was on the other side of the cliff. And I kept pushing the model, you know, closer and closer to the cliff. And she looked at me and she said, you know, I just broke my back. This is my first shoot back from having broken my back on a shoot riding a horse. And I was like, I don't care. We need the shot. I'm gonna push you closer and closer. That was not for television. There were no cameras following me. And it reminded me that a we do anything for the shoot. And also, it is a precarious position. Would I do that today? No. I would listen to the model and say, you know what? She's not comfortable. I hear you. But then I didn't. And everything that you were doing brought me back to that time, and I think it's very, very accurate. You know, Nigel talks about, I think, getting gored by a bull, you know, and what you do for the shot. How do you approach creativity now? How do you look at editorial? What's your take on the landscape of beauty and fashion today? [00:31:12] Speaker B: Oh, I. Today, I do think there is a heightened sensitivity around Will, say, creating safe spaces for all the creatives, not just the models on set. Because there are also horror stories for stylists, hair, makeup. Like, there are horror stories out there within this industry. My personal take is that I feel that people are more sensitive to it because everyone has one of these. And literally, within minutes, if things start to get tense on set, people pick that up, it's recorded, it's out there. Or even if it's not recorded, people are reporting it. There are eyeballs everywhere. And I think that that has helped. It's unfortunate to say this, but it has helped curb a lot of the nonsense. However, I think if we didn't have that kind of sense of we have the power to have our voices heard. If these social platforms didn't exist, I Do think a lot. The fashion industry specifically would have stayed the same. It's the same way, you know, in our documentary. You know, Danny, let's just use her as an example, A powerful voice in this doc that just. It. You know, I think she knows how much I love her as a model and as a human being, but she just tells her story in a way that is incredible. She's a stunning model, a stunning woman. And the way the industry kind of shut her out after she won Cycle six. But we know today all fashion shows are based on virality. You know, look at the front rows of the show. Come on, James, you've been there. It's like a few editors. Maybe it's all influencers who can get our message out there? How can we get our message out there? The whole industry has shifted to actually supporting people who can create that viral moment because the industry now relies on that. The power dynamic has flipped as to who really has the power and who has the voice. That's why things have changed in the industry. But I don't think it would have changed if we didn't have. If the power didn't shift to all of us, to the people. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Well, I agree with you. I will say this. In my opinion, creativity has suffered. I don't think that there's people doing really interesting things in editorial or advertising at the moment. I'm generalizing a little bit, but it's not the same kind of take me away, transport me. [00:34:03] Speaker B: There's no push the envelope. You're right. Because everyone is sensitive to cancel culture. If you think of some of the ads, let's just talk about. I mean, there's so many examples, but something that the younger kids who are still talking about it right now. We look at the Tom Ford ads. When he was launching his brand and opening his first stores, he faithfully worked with Terry Richardson. Let's look at how he sold men's fragrance. Where was it like? It's almost like a flash. Cut to an episode of heated rivalry. The fragrance bottle is right there. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Chic spread. I mean, we would love her kids today. If that popped up as an ad, it would be shredded, pulled down in two seconds. We can't do that anymore. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Well, I think that's what happened with America's Next Top Model. You bring up a really interesting point. We're doing, you know, we're living through this time. There wasn't the same social media. There wasn't, you know, this kind of catch you. So the pandemic happens. It's on Netflix. People are watching it. And of course, you know, tearing it down through the lens of today, you know, it does make perfect sense. But listen, like I said, it's gonna happen with all of these things that were on at that time. And let's not forget, there were a lot of shows that were a fuck lot worse. The Swan, where like, you know, literally like surgery for days to become a, you know, a different person. Are you hot lasers pointing out flaws? So this is, to me, America's Next Top Model was groundbreaking for many ways. And I do credit Tyra and I've talked about this a lot with actually opening the aperture of how we see beauty. [00:35:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:35:59] Speaker A: I do think that she achieved that. [00:36:01] Speaker B: And, you know, the other thing too. And again, even though I do share a lot in the documentary, what I do, what's important to note, even in that first episode of the documentary, I'm speaking through how I felt in that time. And I was 150% behind supporting Tyro. And I worked on that show at a time. Again, reality. There was only the Real World and Survivor on air. So this was new. And everyone in fashion and, you know, some of these names, I'm not gonna point people out because some of these people I still, you know, greatly respect today. But everyone said to me, you're gonna do this show. You're gonna ruin your career. Because I had a real bonafide career in the fashion industry for 10 years at this point, and working with a ton of celebrities, was making a lot of money. Bought my first apartment in New York City. People said, you are gonna throw your life away if you do this. No one will touch you. Da da da da da. But what I do love about that I stuck to my guns was supporting Tyra with her dream and also for her to say at that time. Cause there was no Queer Eye. Everyone forgets the timing of that. To put Jay and I on this show in a way where we were kind of flanking her, you know, was a big deal. And what I liked is that we were there just doing our job. We were not gay sidekicks. But you have to remember two men of color who are also queer on TV at that time. And it sounds crazy to say it. It just didn't exist. And you know, and I. And I have said this several times, but. And I didn't even say these exact words of documentary. So I want to take a moment to say that if it wasn't for Ms. J being who he is, it allowed me to lean on him because we were a United front. It was Mr. J and Ms. J. You know, like, we were the. The twins, right. Matter of speaking, the two Js. And he allowed me to be myself and be comfortable with myself. I mean, it was not like I was closeted or anything, but on tv, like that. He allowed me to be myself. And I will forever credit him for giving me that confidence just to be like, fuck it, I'm me. And you're at a time when we were not on tv. [00:38:23] Speaker A: Yeah, listen. And it's so beautiful, the end of the documentary where it is revealed that Ms. J had a stroke and has had a very, very long, kind of arduous comeback and still doing it. I did visit him and it was. It's really heartbreaking in the end. The irony of the. The man that taught so many people how to walk and really defined what catwalk was to not be able to walk. It's really hard to watch, but I know her, honey, and you know she's gonna get up out of that chair. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Oh, my God. I said that on day one when I went to the hospital. He was still learning how to speak at that time. And I said, oh, you're here for a reason. If there's anybody who's gonna get up, get out of the chair. It is funny. I know one of his favorite treats. You know how he loves sweets. Is anything lemon flavored, like lemon pound cake, whatever. So I showed up with mini lemon cupcakes from this bakery that I know that he loves with his. I said, brought him in, and I was like, oof. Because, you know, he was lying there thin and just trying to heal. I was like, well, I brought these to help put on some weight, and only because. And you could see him laughing because Jay loves humor and he loves that kind of thing. So I walked in the room that way, like, I came bearing gifts to help put on the weight, you know? [00:39:54] Speaker A: Yeah, listen, Jay, it's really, really good. You should feel very, very good about the documentary. I said to you when I texted you, like, it's gonna. You know, life is gonna be a little bit challenging in the next few weeks for you, both, the good and the bad. And I know you're gonna handle it beautifully. I wanna turn, though, to post antm. You know, it's so funny. They call em cycles. I think I have a problem with that word, cycling. [00:40:26] Speaker B: We did it the same too. I'm like, why cycles instead of seasons and other shows do two seasons a year? I was like, oh, okay, sure, whatever. [00:40:36] Speaker A: Semantics in 2020, the book, the Wig the Bitch and the Meltdown came out. I was really shocked that you did this and then of course, not surprised. Of course you would came out at a great time. Talk to us quickly about the book, where the idea came from, how hard it was for you, and what's the future for that? Cause I see a future. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I've got it right here. So. Because everyone talks about the COVID too. Yeah, it's this. So first of all, let's be clear. This is a novel. Because some people are like, oh, is this the memoir? [00:41:13] Speaker A: Although. [00:41:14] Speaker B: Although on Oprah's Book Club, and I can't remember which famous author said this, but Oprah has repeated it several times. And the quote goes, every novel is really a memoir. Every memoir is really a novel. If you want to learn the most about a person, read their novel. And I remember hearing that the first time, oh, wow, it's true. Like, how many times have you read a memoir and going, this is fiction. But you know, with novel, when you're writing a novel, a little truth tends to bleed on the page. And if you are truly honest, you are in every character that you are writing. And it is a piece of fiction. I did write it myself. I did not work with a ghostwriter. I had a great writing mentor that I would go to with every draft and we. She talked me through everything and then I'd have to go back and rework it for months. For me, this was an important story to tell because I know, especially with today's TikTok culture, they like short bit things. And a lot of, you know, people I would communicate online say, you know, I don't really. Sitting down to read a book is not something that a lot of people do. However, the amount of people who read it and said, oh my God, this, this is a book I'm about to read. It's fast paced, it's satirical, it's meant to make you laugh out loud, guffaw, be shocked. But at the same time, there's a gravitas in this piece and it's about a journey of self. And ironically, my working title for the novel, because I worked at the beginning, it was kind of off and on for a couple years, and then I went hardcore for about seven months at the end there. But it was called Reality Check. The entire time it was called Reality Check. And then when my publisher, we had a high old meeting with my publisher and my writing mentor and they all were talking about this title and it turned into the Wig, the Bitch and the Meltdown. Now all the Entertainment press when it released because I had Elizabeth Wagmeister did a beautiful article. They had an exclusive in Variety and it came out. People then ran with the wig, the bitch. The bitch is referring to Kesha Cash here. And it's not. It's about life's a bitch, the show's a bitch. But everyone made their own assumption. And that's the thing. When you put something out there, you have to let people run with things. But it's meant to be a fast, fun ride. It is a crazy story. And that writing that piece was when I unpacked a lot of my own emotion. And when you write, it's a very isolating thing. And in the world we work in, it's all about collaboration. So that was the journey of writing this book was so powerful for me and I got to work through a lot. And once the book was done, I actually then did some therapy around that. And so cut to now or over a year ago when we shot the documentary. I sat down in a very healed place. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:17] Speaker B: So it was a very different conversation for me to sit down and record this documentary. And I feel like I've processed everything. I just didn't expect the stuff that did come up when I was writing. And so I think that's where people can feel a lot of the truths in the book. I'll say. And people love to guess the behind the scenes stuff that they're trying to say, ooh, this is true, or this might be fiction. And that's the whole fun of the book because it parallels this. It takes place in a fictional reality show called Model Muse which parallels America's Next Top Model. And there are some parallel moments to Top Models, but then it shows a bit more. So people wonder, did that happen or did that not happen? And I think that's the appeal of the book. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. You came to it all. This feels like sort of the perfect button to everything, you know. And I wanted to end this with one last question. Speaking of reality check, maybe it's too. By the way, it just came out, I think on Entertainment Weekly that Tyra is almost confirming that there is going to be a cycle 25. We'll talk about that in a second. But would you do another reality show? [00:45:39] Speaker B: Would I do another reality show? Well, anything that is non scripted is classified reality so that everything non script is technically in the reality realm. So would I. Yes. Would I be involved in something that is manipulative and where there are games and this and that? No. All of my friends and so many people are saying if anyone could be like, like the right contestants on Traders, it's me. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:15] Speaker B: You know what? So I would do traders and that. That would be. I would do Traders for sure. And I wait for. [00:46:22] Speaker A: Wait, we'll do this. Okay. I know you've got a bunch of these. I love that for you. And I'm gonna put that out there. You know what I will never do. And it feels good when you get a certain age and you're like, I'm not gonna do a makeover again ever. [00:46:41] Speaker B: First of all, I hate the word makeover makeovers. And that's why even when I did my show on Style Style for Famous, I said, if it has the word makeover in it, I'm not doing it. Because I believe that is an insulting from people who look at us like fashion people. We say, we're going to make you over. It's such a condescending term. And I don't. The way I look at it is like we're elevating you. Where are you? How can we elevate you? Because that's all fashion people do. You know, the real deal. Everyone wakes up in the morning and is the same. It's what we choose to do and how we express ourselves with fashion. And that's an elevation of who we are. So that's the word we should be using, not making over. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Well, Jay, thank you so much. I'm going to put my hood back up because I am so manifesting this for you. [00:47:35] Speaker B: The Traitors. [00:47:36] Speaker A: We will see you on the Traitors next season, J. Thank you. Bravo. And listen, more and more to come. Thank you so much. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. And I know I'll see you soon in the city. Rosanna, you will.